spigot....sprigett....spinget...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

caznsue · Post by **caznsue** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:14 am

not sure how you spell it!!

still got my wheel wobble at 65mph, took it to a 5th garage yesterday and he said i need 4 sprigot, spigot....oh whatever he said......thingies. as my wheels are not the official ones for the vehicle and therefore not sitting correctly and therefore that could be the reason benhind the wobble.....my fault, as i requested that they were changed when i purchased her!!

when i asked the dealer to order me them he wants to know the maunufacturer of my wheel........any ideas how i can find this out??

please help..............

pippin · Post by **pippin** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 8:43 am

SPIGOT, you got it right first time, but it is a good idea to hedge your bets with Colin and pippin on the prowl!

caznsue · Post by **caznsue** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:12 pm

hello all.................. got a name on the wheel..............joker. anyone know how i can get the measurements for the spigot................

grumpo · Post by **grumpo** » Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:44 pm

Spigot rings.

The internal diameter is 67.1 mm.

Take a wheel off and measure the wheel spigot hole to
get the external diameter of the spigot ring.

You can buy these plastic rings for about 4 pounds each from
most wheel specialist shops (including Halfords).

If you are doubtful about your external measuring technique,
just buy one and make sure it's a tight fit in the wheel, thumb
pressure should be sufficient.

caznsue · Post by **caznsue** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:56 am

thankyou grumpo..............very helpful, you are a star

Taxiback · Post by **Taxiback** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:41 am

You will find that most alloys fitted with spigot rings will give you wheel wobble.
If I were you I would get some wheels that fit correctly.

dandywarhol · Post by **dandywarhol** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:45 am

...............and to back up taxiback (?) have them balanced by mounting the wheel to the balancer by the wheel bolt holes with an adapter (any reputable tyre fitter will have one, if ot go to a Citroen garage) NOT the spigot. Mazda (and other Japanese wheels) are notorious for having out of true spigots.

caznsue · Post by **caznsue** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:52 am

i have fingers crossed at the moment as the garage.....a different one, rebalanced again and said if it did not work then try the spigot route.....and i wizzzzzzzeeeeddddddd alone at 75mph this morning to give it a go and no wobble!!!!!!!!!!! perhaps this garage have actually balanced it correctly,

will keep you posted, hope it has solved it as im put off the spigot route now...... thanks for all your comments

toodlepip

grumpo · Post by **grumpo** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:15 pm

While I hesitate to get involved with contentious discussions,
I do feel the need to clarify certain points mentioned above.

While the hub studs and nuts are adequate to support the vehicle
load, spigot rings can add a further measure of safety, it may be
surprising how much weight a plastic ring under compression will
support. There are some vehicles which rely on the hub spigot to
further support the vehicle but if spigot rings are required then
these should be made of steel.

Most modern cars simply use the hub spigot to ensure that the
wheels are located perfectly central before fitting the wheel
nuts. It is a proven fact that wheel nuts can be tightened as
hard as possible and yet still remain out of centre with slightly
worn or dirty nut profiles. Tightening wheel nuts in the correct
sequence does a lot to help ensure that the wheel centralises
correctly. The whole point is that fitting wheels with oversize
spigot cavities is a largely hit and miss affair, most of the time
you could be lucky, but on some occasions you certainly wont.
I think Caznsue's latest comments confirm this issue.

In theory, using wheel stud adaptors should be more reliable than
using the spigot to balance the wheels, but it requires an expert
and conscientious mechanic to ensure that the wheel nuts are a
perfect fit and there are not many of those about nowadays.

A further point is that using adaptors becomes the responsibility
of the wheel balancer to ensure they are not damaged, whereas
using the spigot to centralise the wheels becomes the owner's
responsibility or the equipment suppliers should there be any
dispute.

Using after market wheels with exactly the same spigot diameter
as the original factory ones is obviously the perfect solution,
but these are often hard to find, especially for the more
enthusiastic owner as most alloy wheel manufacturers tend to make
a single size outer spigot cavity and use spigot rings to cater
for most popular vehicle sizes.

There may be a rumour that "Mazda are notorious for having out
of true spigots". but I find it very hard to believe that this
is true. The spigots are turned with modern automatic lathes and
at the same time as the wheel bearing cavity, so if the spigot
is out of true centre then so is the bearing cavity. I don't
think Ford would be much interested in a company which produced
such poor quality vehicles.

Personally, I don't see any difference in using wheels with or
without spigot rings, providing you accept the above anomilies,
the most important thing to my mind is that you ensure that the
original wheel nut profiles are exactly the same as the new wheel
profiles, if not, then buy a new set from the wheel suppliers.

What does worry me sometimes is that out of balance rear wheels
are much harder to detect, but it must surely have a similar impact
on the rear wheel bearings.

I get the feeling I might have upset someone, If so, please
accept my sincere apologies.

caznsue · Post by **caznsue** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 5:09 pm

hello grumpo, thankyou once again for all the info, i will print this off and let my garage have a look, you have been most helpful,

have a fab bank holiday weekend,

dandywarhol · Post by **dandywarhol** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:43 pm

Certainly not upset me grumps....very informative reading, especially the spigot/wheel bearing relationship. I've just found that I've had better success balancing Bongo and Mazda 626 wheels by using the wheel bolt/nut holes rather than the spigot.

ferdyb · Post by **ferdyb** » Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:03 pm

Am I right in remembering that we have not been saying that the spigot ring seating on the hub is eccentric, but that the central bore in the aftermarket wheels cannot be relied upon?
Certainly, the original alloy wheels on my old Corolla, seat perfectly onto the hub because of the locating ring on the hub and the bore of the wheel, but the nuts are not countersunk, they are flat faced with large flat washers, and studs fairly loose in the holes, so giving no centralising function at all. Merely holding the wheels on and transmitting drive. Which from an engineering point of view is fine with me.
My feeling is that with manufacturing tolerances taken into account, if you have a tight fitting spigot bore or spigot ring and countersunk nuts, there is going to be a fight between the two, probably, sometimes. And if the ring doesn't fit tightly then you might as well not have it anyway as it won't be doing anything.

ferdy

dandywarhol · Post by **dandywarhol** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 2:59 am

Exactly my sentiments ferdy......you either have spigot mount which relies on the centre hole with plain bolts and washers OR countersunk holes on the wheels which match tapered nuts/bolts - not both.

grumpo · Post by **grumpo** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:51 am

Exactly so Dandy and Ferdy, and therein lies the problem.

Because different manufacturers use different methods
to support the load, and these are not always obvious,
you need to be absolutely sure of the facts before you
change from the original wheels to pattern ones either
steel or alloys.

It's true that you can only have one load bearing surface
either the spigot or the wheel nuts. If your original
wheel nuts have a flat mating surface then the spigot
must be the primary load bearing component, these used
to be known as Hub-centric wheels, the nuts (or bolts)
are simply there to stop the wheel falling off.

To confuse the issue, there are also manufacturers who
rely on the spigot as the main load bearing surface, and
therefore the primary centralising method, yet still
use a conical wheel nut to secure the wheel.

There are also manufacturers who rely on the wheel nuts
or bolts to centralise the wheel and provide the main
load bearing surface, the spigot is used to help locate
the centre before fitting the nuts or bolts.

If the designed load bearing surface is the hub spigot, then
it must be necessay to fit spigot rings to oversize spigot
cavities to maintain the original concept.

As a large proportion of Bongos seem to be fitted with
pattern after market wheels, I just think it would be wise
to confirm which is the correct loading surface for the
benefit of those who may not be aware of the implications.

I have searched the forum for specific advice on this
subject but my searching skills are not that great and
it could be tucked away somewhere where I can't find it.

I am not suggesting that there is any danger in fitting
alternative wheels to the Bongo, it's simply that some
wheel balancing problems are a result of inappropriate
matching of the designed vehicle load surface.

I would like to see this debate continue until we reach
a difinitive conclusion with specific regard to the Bongo.

If I had the good fortune to be in Turkey today, I suppose
I could pop in and ask Ron Dennis. (I only wish I could).

2sticks · Post by **2sticks** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:23 am

Good idea grumpo, After browsing the forum recently I had a new set of Vancos fitted and made sure they were balanced with a stud adaptor and acheived a 0,0 result. later on in the week travelling on the motorway I got a slight case of wheel vibration at 65 mph. I took it back to garage who said that it needed rings and they wouldn't have noticed because I asked for them to be done with the stud adaptor. I went out and bought some rings had them fitted without re-balancing and it instantly cured the shakes.

I still dont know if I did the right thing and I would certainly like some reassurance.