EGR again

paulo · Post by **paulo** » Thu May 17, 2007 1:59 pm

Has anyone else sent off their £3.50 for this offer on EBAY. 220110597698

It looks like a very good offer and has clear instructions ( as long as I can find the EGR in the first place), but before I go ahead is there any possible risk as I don't have any problems with black smoke or emissions and am only doing it for increased BHP and fuel economy. ther is also the concerns of the damage the EGR can cause in the future to the turbo etc.

The instructions also say that as it improves economy it is environmentally positive.

mikeonb4c · Post by **mikeonb4c** » Thu May 17, 2007 2:16 pm

paulo - been discussed before has this one. Its generally regarded as more 'black magic' than 'black emissions', but some swear by things like this. I think the vendor must make a packet because people will say to themselves 'Oh well, its only £3.50 so I'll give it a go and its no big sweat if its a waste of time.'

Note to Self - must sit down and dream up something like tha myself.

Mike

Veg_Ian · Post by **Veg_Ian** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:10 pm

Paulo - what Mike means is it's a con. You are paying for a ball bearing. Do a search in the archives for a thread entitled 'Manifold sludge' and you will see a diagram showing how to block the EGR pipe for free.

Veg_Ian · Post by **Veg_Ian** » Thu May 17, 2007 3:29 pm

Its generally regarded as more 'black magic' than 'black emissions',

Mike were you referring to the advert or the concept of disabling the EGR? If the latter - shame on you. I thought we had put this one to bed. An EGR system is added after the engine has been designed and built and disabling it has no detrimental effect on a diesel engine like that in the Bongo and similar Japanese imports. Disabling it is known to slightly improve performance and reduce sooty emissions and most importantly stops the formation of black gunge in the inlet system. A faulty EGR can cause problem black smoke as per the recent thread from Joan in France (albeit not the confirmed cause as yet).

I'm not asking anyone to take my views at face value but they were corroborated by those more knowledgable than me including Dandy and Allans.

mikeonb4c · Post by **mikeonb4c** » Thu May 17, 2007 4:57 pm

I was of course referring to the advert my dear Watson. The juxtaposing of the word 'black' against the words 'magic' and 'emissions' was simply by way of an oblique and ironic ripost to the claims that one mumbo-jumbo ball bearing, a lot of words, and £3.50 could stop black smoke and global warming.

Veg_Ian · Post by **Veg_Ian** » Thu May 17, 2007 7:27 pm

I was of course referring to the advert my dear Watson.

Good man, how could I have thought otherwise?

Steve1259 · Post by **Steve1259** » Thu May 17, 2007 9:13 pm

Hi,
I have posted on a similar thread before because as I understand the reason for having an EGR valve is the recirculation of the exhaust gas in order to lower the combustion chamber temperatures which in turn lowers the production of Oxides of Nitrogen emissions. This is a very bad emission both for us and the planet

By allowing a controlled amount of exhaust gas to re-circulate back to the combustion chamber, the next combustion process is far cooler. This is because the exhaust gas contains water vapor, which brings about a cooling effect, and the presence of the exhaust gas means lower combustion pressures (less space for oxygen). This is why your bongo engine will give you an improved performance when you block the EGR valve. But as stated above your Oxides of Nitrogen emissions will go up.
To get back to your question, I would guess that with EGR valve blocked the combustion chamber temperatures will also increase and the extra heat therefore produced must go somewhere and it is very possible that the increase in exhaust gas temperatures could well cause problems to the turbo bearings in time.
I personally would be reluctant to block an EGR valve long term.
Steve

Veg_Ian · Post by **Veg_Ian** » Fri May 18, 2007 6:37 am

Each to their own but I think the increase in temp you talk about is marginal and the Bongo has an intercooler. The main reason for blocking off the EGR as far as I am concerned is to stop the build up of crud in the inlet manifold. Unfortunately the EGR system is not selective in identifying nitrous oxides from the exhaust gas it takes the lot including soot particles which are the basis of the sludge which solidifies to create a rock hard deposit that blocks the airways in the manifold and surrounding tubes. To me this is far more detrimental to the engine than a marginal increase in temperature. The thread entitled "manifold sludge" shows some typical alarming photos of the damage caused by this sludge. Owners of imported diesel engined vehicles have been disabling EGR systems for 10 years or more and is a recognised good practice. But as I said earlier, it's a personal choice.

mikeonb4c · Post by **mikeonb4c** » Fri May 18, 2007 10:37 am

At the risk of being mischeivious, I think we can forget about Bongo Owners and their contribution to Oxides of Nitrogen and the environment.

As a group, they are small in number and almost certainly have profiles that dont involve a lot of flying off with Ryanair every weekend at £1 per flight. So in real terms their contribution can naver be major and is probably offset by their overall behaviour.

Much more interesting in my view is that - as a group - they are curious, innovative, inventive and constantly searching for ways to improve economy and reduce the running cost of a car.. This is just the kind of thing that is needed at a time when we all need to be exploring new (and sometimes unlikely) avenues in the interest of saving the environment.

This may sound daft (and I expect to get shot down for this one), but there is another key thing about Bongo owners. The time they spend tinkering with their machines is time they are not driving around bored and aimless. So they are dong something that is great fun (for them), but actually reducing the amount of driving they do in their cars. Its an ineresting thought that 2 weekends not spent driving and camping might save you enough in fuel to buy and fit a new stereo system.

Run for cover Mike, tomatoes closing in from all directions

bigdaddycain · Post by **bigdaddycain** » Fri May 18, 2007 10:58 am

Splat.... splat... Quite true mike, setting up an awning has to be more environmentally friendly than sitting in traffic on tickover surely???

Do i conclude from the overall E.G.R. debate that in the case of the bongo, that it's desirable to disable the system one way or another?

And in doing so,although ecologically questionable,is better from a stand point of preventative maintenence?

That leaves only one further query then... the best way to go about disabling? Fit Allans blanking plates?

smartmonkey · Post by **smartmonkey** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:13 am

The EGR is a cheap and easy way of getting old engines through the emissions test demanded of new vehicles. You are diverting a small amount of waste gas through the engine and using fuel and HP to treat emissions. Sadly this actually increases some emissions (but decreases the ones they test for). This gets the manufacturer off the hook with a new vehicle but doesn't mean that a 50,000 miler runs cleaner as well. The EGR is notoriously maintenance heavy and unless it is running perfectly it does more harm than good. Might I remind you that one reason for bypassing it is to pass the MOT emissions test. I.E. you are putting out too many emission with the EGR in place to pass the test (and the test parameters are there to cut down the most significant emissions).

The confusion about exhaust gas temperature comes from the modern use of EGR's in recent diesels. They run so lean and clean that they need EGR for a different set of reasons. This can include exhaust temperature control, although that is seldom applicable in this country. The reason most modern turbo's fail is simply poor oil control and cost cutting. BMW and Renault have a very poor reputation for turbo problems and both have sought to cure this with upgraded turbo's (not upgraded EGR systems). The new BMW turbo's don't fail in the old engine, but Renault still seem to be having problems.

Mike is quite right about pollution control. Not using air travel is the best way to reduce individual pollution factors. The next best thing you can do is not buy new vehicles. The pollution that goes into the manufacture of a new car is vast. We should congratuglate ourselves on keeping older vehicles running. It is much more environmentallt sound to keep you Bongo going than to rush out and buy a Toyota Pious.

Not tham I advocating removing EGR's, I do but but that's just my own opinion.

Veg_Ian · Post by **Veg_Ian** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:28 am

Very eloquently put Smartmonkey, you added some points that I forgot to.

To answer your question Bigdaddy - you can remove the pipe and block it with a bolt or similar as per my earlier post wayback or fit a blanking plate between the inlet manifold and the EGR pipe that runs round the back of the engine and connects to the exhaust manifold. This can be achieved by purchasing a blank from Allans or making your own out of some scrap hardened steel. Remove the two bolts holding the pipe in place, slide out the gasket and use that as a template to fabricate your blanking plate. Refit gasket and plate and jobs a goodun in about ten minutes or so.

bigdaddycain · Post by **bigdaddycain** » Fri May 18, 2007 11:29 am

Toyota pious... i like that s.m.

I suppose a bongo could be considered a hybrid vehicle also? Its a car, its a part time house!... Imagine how much less work the power station that provides electricity to your average household would have to do if everbody bought a bongo and slept in that instead!

So, us bongo owners are at the forefront of ecological preservation,using natural re-usable resources, and are eco friendly too!

I reckon that justifies a hefty tax rebate for us all then,to reimburse us for the sacrifices we make to help keep this planet so healthy.

E.G.R. disabling time it is then...