Auto to Manual conversion question - wiring..

[cutlass]

it is story about change AT to MT https://mikrob.ru/viewtopic.php?f=785&t=41984 if you need - I try translate it in English

[g8dhe]

The Beeps have nothing to do with the ECU/PCM that is the signal from the physical switch, the tag marked 29 to diagram T-1 on the diagrams.

[kester]

Ok, so earlier I tried turning the engine over again to see if it would fire, but nothing happened. No clicks or anything - dead... Won't even turn over now. Hold light still flashing.
I decided to drag the auto box back underneath and connect everything back up and ran an extension grounding wire to the one that comes out of the starter-motor loom (and normally connects to the auto box case). Still nothing and the Hold light is still flashing..
Disconnected battery and pressed brake pedal for approx 2mins and reconnected, hoping that any error codes may have been wiped, but same results again..

[Northern Bongolow]

i dont think there is a manual box ecu, and i cannot think why it would need one, im sure my manual bongo didnt have one.
you would have to fool the engine ecu into thinking its got a manual box, hence the ref to grounding. it sounds like if you do what you have done, already connecting the selector sensor to the loom then ground the body of the sensor to a good earth then it should run.

That sounds very interesting statement from prominent technical expert , I would ask you only as a matter of interest did the manual box that you have /had owned have a speedo cable or was it transmitted through the control unit/ ecu or whatever you call this device.

You take care ..

i was going to go off on a rant about your red pen quotes and the sly digs again but it isnt really worth it as this is a friendly forum. we obviously see things differently and thats fine. i come at these things from a different place to you, the way i do this forum is that sometimes to get the right answer to a problem you have to put out questions or misinformation to get the proof, sometimes the proof is harder to get at so some prompting is needed, if you look at the thread you will see that geoff supplied proof that it does have a ecu for the box just after my posting. i can tell you care about the facts and that the thread needs to be accurate but does it have to happen in 3 posts or can it take a little longer, people on this forum have diff experience and knowledge and i dont pretend to be an expert, i have a lot of experience in working on bongos, as do you, if you want to make this just another forum full of nasty comments carry on with digs. i personally dont mind how long it takes to get the answers people make their own mind up as to whether the content is accurate or not but showing the journey to the answer is much more informative than someone just stating the answer in post no2.

[kester]

Quick update, I made a schoolboy error with the grounding - doh.. Connected it properly and now the Hold light stays off, but the engine will still not turn over. Will try and fix that first before carrying on with the wiring conundrum....

[teenmal]

i dont think there is a manual box ecu, and i cannot think why it would need one, im sure my manual bongo didnt have one.
you would have to fool the engine ecu into thinking its got a manual box, hence the ref to grounding. it sounds like if you do what you have done, already connecting the selector sensor to the loom then ground the body of the sensor to a good earth then it should run.

That sounds very interesting statement from prominent technical expert , I would ask you only as a matter of interest did the manual box that you have /had owned have a speedo cable or was it transmitted through the control unit/ ecu or whatever you call this device.

You take care ..

i was going to go off on a rant about your red pen quotes and the sly digs again but it isnt really worth it as this is a friendly forum. we obviously see things differently and thats fine. i come at these things from a different place to you, the way i do this forum is that sometimes to get the right answer to a problem you have to put out questions or misinformation to get the proof, sometimes the proof is harder to get at so some prompting is needed, if you look at the thread you will see that geoff supplied proof that it does have a ecu for the box just after my posting. i can tell you care about the facts and that the thread needs to be accurate but does it have to happen in 3 posts or can it take a little longer, people on this forum have diff experience and knowledge and i dont pretend to be an expert, i have a lot of experience in working on bongos, as do you, if you want to make this just another forum full of nasty comments carry on with digs. i personally dont mind how long it takes to get the answers people make their own mind up as to whether the content is accurate or not but showing the journey to the answer is much more informative than someone just stating the answer in post no2.

Brilliant, I used to WIND UP Big Ben but my services are not require at the moment for obvious reasons, as you will appreciate I need to fill in my time (excuse the pun) somewhere else.

And they say "Scotsmen" don't have a sense of humour.

When I say TAKE CARE I really mean it.

[Northern Bongolow]

When I say TAKE CARE I really mean it.
[/quote]
thanks for the warning, noted.

[kester]

Another update..

Some success!

Disconnected the auto gear selector switch and tested with a multi-meter using the diagrams that Geoff posted the link to (A1-03 on Page 30). Could only get continuity (think that's what it's called) when in "reverse" gear. Couldn't seem to get "Park" position working. Maybe I'd been a bit rough when removing it from the auto box!

Looked at the diagrams again, and it seemed to me that the wire shown as B/Y would need to be connected to two other wires.

1/ Wire Y (shown on Page 30)
2/ Wire W (shown on Page 18) to allow the engine to start.

Made up a three connector wire ready to connect, looked at the plug (A1-03) on the loom and the colours didn't seem to match the positions shown in the diagram. Anyway, I connected the BLACK, WHITE (the two large spade connectors) and YELLOW (the smaller connector in between the Black and White) all together and the Engine started!

Then disconnected B2-21 from the auto box (which I'd shoved back under the van to aide testing) and fully expected the engine to not start , but to my surprise it did! Yes, the Hold light is flashing again, but a running engine is a step in the right direction I suppose.

Not sure if it will limit revs/limp-home etc, I was just happy to sit on axle stands testing the gears!

[Bob]

An interesting project, thanks for updates.

[mikeonb4c]

An interesting project, thanks for updates.

2nd that Bob and hats off to Kester. I can't imagine not being able to eat a cheese sandwich while driving

Kester - from what i've gathered (but Northern Bongolow is the expert manual owner so hopefully will confirm) the manual makes better urban mpg possible as you can (as you've flagged up) make better use of engine torque and reduce fuel wasting revving, but it is undergeared in top gear so that at motorway/open road speeds its slightly less economical than the autobox.

As you'll have gathered, Teenmal is our resident Scottish humourist, and (i suspect) a v experienced and knowledgeable mechanic, with some v definite views.

[kester]

Thanks guys,

To be honest the extra urban MPG would be nice, but I mainly got fed up with listening to the over-revving. The engine seemed to have a sweet spot between 1.7k-2k RPM where it really did pull like a train, but most of the time the box would change down and rev a lot higher - with all the added NOISE!! So I'm hoping the manual will make the driving experience better. Don't mind missing out on the odd cheese sandwich.... Plus, I don't do a lot of motorway driving. The van gets used more as a "day van" than a long distance "camping van" (atm).

Just doing a few final bits before taking for a test drive. Bleeding brakes/clutch etc. Gonna make the "Park" wiring a bit more permanent by soldering the wires together on the old connector block.

Also, had a thought about trying to clear the flashing hold light.. Had a look at the diagram on Page30 showing the components which are in the Auto box. There are 5 Coils and a "Variable Resistor" (VR). Dunno what they all do, but thought maybe I can fool the ECU into thinking the box is still there by measuring the resistances of the coils and the VR and make a circuit board to emulate this. Measured approx 20 Ohm for each coil (between the connector pins and the box case, and the 4.2k Ohm across the VR. Popped to Maplins for a breadboard and a few resistors, so will update with the results.. If I dare plug it up, that is.. Might end up frying the ECU..

And if anyone else fancies attempting this conversion, then I strongly recommend doing it in a warm garage with a ramp, and not on a driveway with trolley jacks - I'm freeeeeeezin (but a Northerner, so I won't complain too much)

[kester]

Small update on this one.

Firstly, another schoolboy error. I'd been looking at the wiring diagrams from a 1997 onwards.. Mine's a 1996. I wondered why the wires didn't match what I could see. I'm colourblind, but didn't think I was that bad

Found the diagrams for 1995 from Geoff's link and managed to work a couple of things out..

Firstly, contrary to what I posted above, you only need to connect the BLACK and WHITE (largest spade connectors) together. No need for the Yellow. It looks like that is only needed on post 1997 models. That sorts the "PARK" starting issue.

Secondly, I managed to connect the Reversing switch to the auto-loom so that now works. Have lights and "beep - beep". Will double check the wiring colours and report back...

Speedo is the next on the list. Having to follow other cars through average speed trap areas atm to figure out whats my revs are... Maybe a GPS Phone App might be in order.

Would I do this again????
Hmm.. I like the fact that I see a fuel saving already (150 miles covered). I can engage reverse whilst still moving slightly forward, and visa-versa (didn't dare in auto).
The gearing is all wrong for fast-road/motorway. Stick to Auto if that's what you do mainly. Unless they did a 6-speed manual version???? Anyone know?

[Bob]

I wonder if the diff ratio was different on manual/auto?

[kester]

I'd be surprised Bob, as the other gears seem "OK". Just needs a longer 5th... if that's the right term for it... (waiting to be shot down for that statement!)

[kester]

Although, thinking about it, I'm wondering if that gearbox was maybe used on a higher revving petrol engine? Just doesn't seem quite right. But still liking it. Won't be for everyone though..