winter tyres 2011-2012

[sfinnie]

Hello folks,

Apologies for re-visiting this topic, but most previous postings are a few years old.

Am looking for advice and recommendations on winter tyres this year, in particular:

- which tyres?
- which suppliers?
- are the insurance rumblings still rumbling or is it all over now (we're with Lifesure)?

Vredestein quatracs get positive mentions in a few threads. Is that still true? I also noticed Nankang SW-7s in a post. Any experience with them? Mytyres.co.uk are doing the Nankangs (215/65-15-100H) for £67.40 inc p&p - which seems a good deal.

TIA

- S.

[Rhod]

Lifesure had no issues with my running Quadtracs when I spoke to them last year.
The Quadtracs have proved to be good under all conditions for me, but they're all-season tyres, rather than full winter tyres. The low temperature compound means that they're far more effective than summer tyres on cold, wet/slushy roads, but the lower profile tread pattern means that they don't have the same traction on snow as a winter tyre. I've had no problems with traction in snow, or even on sheet ice, but that's on a 4WD Bongo. The bigger issue is probably that they don't give the same impressive braking performance that true winter tyres do.

[scanner]

Hello folks,

Apologies for re-visiting this topic, but most previous postings are a few years old.

Am looking for advice and recommendations on winter tyres this year, in particular:

- which tyres?
- which suppliers?
- are the insurance rumblings still rumbling or is it all over now (we're with Lifesure)?

Vredestein quatracs get positive mentions in a few threads. Is that still true? I also noticed Nankang SW-7s in a post. Any experience with them? Mytyres.co.uk are doing the Nankangs (215/65-15-100H) for £67.40 inc p&p - which seems a good deal.

TIA

- S.

As Rhod says the Quatracs are still as good as any - however there are Quatrac 2s and Quatrac 3s -and they are not the same tyre.
Both have the all-season "sun/rain/snow" symbols but the 2s are marked "M+S" whereas the 3s do not have the "M+S" marking but have the proper winter tyre "Snowflake on a mountain" symbol.

http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre/vredestein-quatrac-2
http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre/vredestein-quatrac-3

From that it appears that Oponeo categorise all Quatracs as "All-Season" despite the Snowflake on a Mountain symbol on the 3s.

As for where to get them - the answer is "wherever you can find any". I couldn't get any 16" Quatracs so have had to go for Yokohama W-drive this time.
http://www.oponeo.co.uk/tyre-details/yo ... 5-r16-98-h

[dandywarhol]

I have Gislaved Nord Frost which have both the snowflake in the mountain and M +S on them. They are winter tyres.

Edited because of stupidity.................

[scanner]

http://www.ityre.com/en/tyres/catalog/g ... odel/1297/

[dandywarhol]

Aye, I'm loosin' it - Gislaved they are

http://www.ityre.com/en/tyres/catalog/g ... odel/1300/

[Ron Miel]

Quatrac 2s are no longer made in any sizes to fit Bongos but are now reserved for smaller car-size wheels. The 2s are actually the Quatracs which major on (and depend for all their effectiveness on) low temperature tread compound - and, this far south I've found them great in all seasons on our Bongo.

Quatrac 3s work on a different principle, being assymetric, with a summer side and a winter side running in parallel on each tread surface, plus heavy water shed grooving. According to their original spec, they did not also employ a low temperature compound. I've not yet used the 3s, although will probably have to next time, but judging by their tread pattern(s) I've always suspected they might not be as quiet, smooth and ride-comfortable as the 2s.

Vredestein were taken over by Apollo Tyres of India, a couple of years back, who then said they would strategically rationalise/harmonise the Vredestein and Apollo ranges. A new Quatrac Lite all-seasons tyre range was launched at this year's Geneva Motor show in March, to be sold under both brands, aimed squarely at the small, low mileage, car market - having apparently squared the circle with an unusually good combination of safe all-seasons performance, including Sno-Flake and M + S classifications, ride comfort and quietness, together with class leading fuel economy. I imagine the downside is a high wear factor, hence the "low mileage" target market. Only problem is that none have yet reached here, or they hadn't a week or two back when I tried to get some for our Nissan Note. However, I imagine the smaller size Quatrac 2s will perhaps disappear when Quatrac Lites do finally hit the market, removing the low temperature tread compound from their product mix.

[Rhod]

[quote="Ron Miel"]Quatrac 2s are no longer made in any sizes to fit Bongos but are now reserved for smaller car-size wheels. The 2s are actually the Quatracs which major on (and depend for all their effectiveness on) low temperature tread compound - and, this far south I've found them great in all seasons on our Bongo.

Quatrac 3s work on a different principle, being assymetric, with a summer side and a winter side running in parallel on each tread surface, plus heavy water shed grooving. According to their original spec, they did not also employ a low temperature compound. I've not yet used the 3s, although will probably have to next time, but judging by their tread pattern(s) I've always suspected they might not be as quiet, smooth and ride-comfortable as the 2s.quote]

I didn't know that the Quatrac 3's didn't have the low temperature compound. If that's correct then it certainly doesn't seem to detract from their performance on cold tarmac. I switched from a set of 2's to 3's last winter due to the unavailability of the 2's. In all honesty, I can't say that I noticed any difference in the performance or noise levels post switch. If anything I'd have said that the 3's were slightly quieter.

[scanner]

I didn't know that the Quatrac 3's didn't have the low temperature compound. If that's correct then it certainly doesn't seem to detract from their performance on cold tarmac. I switched from a set of 2's to 3's last winter due to the unavailability of the 2's. In all honesty, I can't say that I noticed any difference in the performance or noise levels post switch. If anything I'd have said that the 3's were slightly quieter.

Same here on all points - if the 3s don't have the low temp compound, why are they the ones with the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol?

2s only have the "M+S" symbol which is actually quite meaningless as it has no official significance.

From what I have read the only way of knowing you have tyres with true cold weather capability is to insist they are "Mountain & Snowflake" marked as per the Quatrac 3.

[Ron Miel]

I didn't know that the Quatrac 3's didn't have the low temperature compound. If that's correct then it certainly doesn't seem to detract from their performance on cold tarmac. I switched from a set of 2's to 3's last winter due to the unavailability of the 2's. In all honesty, I can't say that I noticed any difference in the performance or noise levels post switch. If anything I'd have said that the 3's were slightly quieter.

Same here on all points - if the 3s don't have the low temp compound, why are they the ones with the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol?

2s only have the "M+S" symbol which is actually quite meaningless as it has no official significance.

From what I have read the only way of knowing you have tyres with true cold weather capability is to insist they are "Mountain & Snowflake" marked as per the Quatrac 3.

Do all M & S tyres have low temperature compound by definition then? I thought it was more down to tread design and testing. Anyway, I simply noticed that Vredestein made a real song and dance about the compound being what made the 2s work well all-seasons but did not mention it in the 3s - although perhaps that was, as I suggested, because that was all the 2s had going for them. As we've agreed in the past though, the 2s do certainly perform well, doing exactly what it says on the tin. Glad to hear the 3s are apparently no more noisy, perhaps better, as they still look the best choice for me when I have to swap out the 2s.

Think I noticed on another recent thread that you've now changed your 3s for something else, scanner. What mileage did you get from the 3s? We both last changed tyres (me to 2s, you to 3s) at about the same time 2 winters back, I think. The 2s on my Bongo, with expected low mileage meanwhile, will hopefully see me through to the New Year, or maybe even next spring, with 7 or 8 mm remaining across the treads and about 17,000 miles done.

[scanner]

I didn't know that the Quatrac 3's didn't have the low temperature compound. If that's correct then it certainly doesn't seem to detract from their performance on cold tarmac. I switched from a set of 2's to 3's last winter due to the unavailability of the 2's. In all honesty, I can't say that I noticed any difference in the performance or noise levels post switch. If anything I'd have said that the 3's were slightly quieter.

Same here on all points - if the 3s don't have the low temp compound, why are they the ones with the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol?

2s only have the "M+S" symbol which is actually quite meaningless as it has no official significance.

From what I have read the only way of knowing you have tyres with true cold weather capability is to insist they are "Mountain & Snowflake" marked as per the Quatrac 3.

Do all M & S tyres have low temperature compound by definition then? I thought it was more down to tread design and testing. Anyway, I simply noticed that Vredestein made a real song and dance about the compound being what made the 2s work well all-seasons but did not mention it in the 3s - although perhaps that was, as I suggested, because that was all the 2s had going for them. As we've agreed in the past though, the 2s do certainly perform well, doing exactly what it says on the tin. Glad to hear the 3s are apparently no more noisy, perhaps better, as they still look the best choice for me when I have to swap out the 2s.

Think I noticed on another recent thread that you've now changed your 3s for something else, scanner. What mileage did you get from the 3s? We both last changed tyres (me to 2s, you to 3s) at about the same time 2 winters back, I think. The 2s on my Bongo, with expected low mileage meanwhile, will hopefully see me through to the New Year, or maybe even next spring, with 7 or 8 mm remaining across the treads and about 17,000 miles done.

You are now confusing M+S which has NO official definition (and so may only be a tread pattern) and so no legal standing with the Mountain&Snowflake symbol which does (officially) show the tyre has "low temperature capability".
I admit Vredestein are somewhat ambiguous on their explanation of the difference between 2s and 3s BUT the official markings tell a different story. The 2s may have silicon technology as Vredestein say BUT they are not marked (or rather my now 4 year old ones weren't) with the "Mountain&Snowflake" only with "M+S".
My 3s have just been replaced after almost exactly 2 years not sure of the mileage but they have been 2 pretty hard years of use so I'm not too worried. I would guess they mine did about 30,000 miles.

I'm surprised you have 7 or 8mm left after 17,000 miles, as I think they only have just over 8mm when new.

[rita]

I didn't know that the Quatrac 3's didn't have the low temperature compound. If that's correct then it certainly doesn't seem to detract from their performance on cold tarmac. I switched from a set of 2's to 3's last winter due to the unavailability of the 2's. In all honesty, I can't say that I noticed any difference in the performance or noise levels post switch. If anything I'd have said that the 3's were slightly quieter.

Same here on all points - if the 3s don't have the low temp compound, why are they the ones with the "Mountain & Snowflake" symbol?

2s only have the "M+S" symbol which is actually quite meaningless as it has no official significance.

From what I have read the only way of knowing you have tyres with true cold weather capability is to insist they are "Mountain & Snowflake" marked as per the Quatrac 3.

Do all M & S tyres have low temperature compound by definition then? I thought it was more down to tread design and testing. Anyway, I simply noticed that Vredestein made a real song and dance about the compound being what made the 2s work well all-seasons but did not mention it in the 3s - although perhaps that was, as I suggested, because that was all the 2s had going for them. As we've agreed in the past though, the 2s do certainly perform well, doing exactly what it says on the tin. Glad to hear the 3s are apparently no more noisy, perhaps better, as they still look the best choice for me when I have to swap out the 2s.

Think I noticed on another recent thread that you've now changed your 3s for something else, scanner. What mileage did you get from the 3s? We both last changed tyres (me to 2s, you to 3s) at about the same time 2 winters back, I think. The 2s on my Bongo, with expected low mileage meanwhile, will hopefully see me through to the New Year, or maybe even next spring, with 7 or 8 mm remaining across the treads and about 17,000 miles done.

Hi Ron...You must be Treading very very carefully.Great stuff well done.

[Ron Miel]

It's not down to low speeds, anyway. Lots of, cruise-controlled, progressive acceleration, and me-controlled progressive braking (mainly engine braking on descents - not that that affects tyre wear) probably counts for a lot though.

[scanner]

It's not down to low speeds, anyway. Lots of, cruise-controlled, progressive acceleration, and me-controlled progressive braking (mainly engine braking on descents - not that that affects tyre wear) probably counts for a lot though.

Still don't see how you can have nearly full tread left after 17,000miles however gently you drive Ron - certainly not with the grip the Vredesteins give.

[Ron Miel]

It's not down to low speeds, anyway. Lots of, cruise-controlled, progressive acceleration, and me-controlled progressive braking (mainly engine braking on descents - not that that affects tyre wear) probably counts for a lot though.

Still don't see how you can have nearly full tread left after 17,000miles however gently you drive Ron - certainly not with the grip the Vredesteins give.

Absolutely right - hadn't, until now, seen your earlier post pointing this out though. When I did now read both posts I just grabbed torch and tread depth gauge, and rushed out in the rain to re-check what I had been burbling about

My unused spare Quatrac 2 has 8mm tread depth in most places but falls off to closer to 7mm near the shoulders. That's what I was remembering in the small hours today, from a month ago when I last checked all our tyres - Mrs M's Nissan Note (getting a bit close to 3 mm) in particular. Had forgotten that 8mm is the nominal new tread depth for most tyres. The Bongo's running tyres currently have 6mm on the fronts, and 5.5mm on the rears - so, far from finishing in the New Year, they'll perhaps see me through much of next year (down closer to 3mm), with continued care, and I still reckon they're doing well. Meanwhile, apologies to all.

Lesson - get to bed at night, and don't try to use aged brain at 1:58 am

Yes, also temporarily confused M&S with Mountain and Snow symbol - who wouldn't, other than St Michael? Two year old Quatrac 2s also still only had the M+S symbol but, although that indeed means something different (and I fully understood what the difference was when I bought Quatrac 2s), according to Wikipedia at least, it does have just as much industry standing as Mountain and Snow:

"M+S, or M&S: Mud and Snow; A tire that meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) all-season tire definition.[19] These are all-weather tires, with self-cleaning tread and above-average traction in muddy or very light snowy conditions, and for low ambient temperatures. Spike tires have an additional letter, "E" (M+SE).

Mountain Snowflake Pictograph: Winter passenger and light truck tires that meet the severe snow service requirements of Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) and Rubber Association of Canada (RAC).[19]"

In referring to M&S but meaning Mountain and Snow, I was not referring to Quatrac 2s. When I asked "Do all M & S tyres have low temperature compound by definition then?", I was questioning the assumption that because Quatrac 3s and other winter tyres had the symbol, they must have low temperature compounded tread rubber. As far as I can tell, that isn't the case, although I acknowledged that Vredestein could possibly have stressed it for Quatrac 2s as that was all that made them tick - as a corollary to that, I guess they might just possibly have failed to mention it for Quatrac 3s because it was so blindingly obvious (or was their spec writer also burning too much midnight oil/carbon black?) Strangely, the M&S definition above does refer to "low ambient temperatures", thus qualifying the Quatrac 2s, but the Mountain and Snow definition does not