confused about over heating devices

[mikexgough]

good thoughts Mike........... My other thought is, after visiting many Japanese Bongo owners groups and sites...........Why don't they fit any devices?.......

They do fit HID lights,Zorsts,Boost gauage,Seats,Wheels,Air suspension,Webasto type heaters and camping bits etc.........but nothing to do with overheating nor undamping the temp gauge......

crouches down awaiting the flack and fall out........of such a suggestion....

Is it because they have a better car maintenance regime than we do?........or perhaps not as lazy as us and check levels more often?......or maybe don't use their Bongos as much.......(but this guy puts the latter theory to bed....... http://kurumatabi.net/) - he even write books/magazines/runs camp weekends and has website.....

Did I read (on here?) that (some) modern cars do now have a low cooling warning fitted as standard?

Probably only Lexus and makes like that though

Yep the 2010 U.S model of Toyota Prius has.....but then it has low oil and other fluids too....in/out temperature etc......

[2sticks]

Hi Ben
You say you are used to getting readings up to at least 127. Are you aware that the TM-2 will not show temperatures above 127?

I am well aware of the limitations of the TM-2 but I would also add that
I have 3 very accurate thermocouples fitted, one in the cylinder head in
the second spare bolt hole which ACCURATELY monitors the aluminium
temperature and is not influenced by the exhaust manifold, a second one
is fitted to the flow exit close to the Mazda temperature gauge sensor
which allows me to calibrate my modified Mazda gauge, and a third one
which is glued to the rear of the cylinder head. I might add that I have
2 Bongos, both fitted with identical sensors which allows me to make
comparisons.

Contrary to Lindeeloo's suggestion, I am not in the habit of "flirting with
disaster", in fact I am probably more careful than the majority of owners
which is why I amuse myself finding out what happens when I push my
Bongo to the limits. My example I quoted above was on my way to Looe
last year and decided to push it hard up Telegraph Hill which I normally
never do. About three quarters of the way up I was down to about 40
MPH and the TM-2 was indicating 125 C, the thermocouple was showing
126 C, the coolant temperature was around 105 C. By the time I got to
the top, the TM-2 had reached it's limits and the thermocouple was up
to 132 C. the coolant thermocouple remained around 105 C. and I was
doing less than 35 MPH in a low gear. I also take the trouble to record
any results of what I observe which is a habit I had to develop during
almost 50 years of my working life in the environmental control industry
which also involved Industrial stand by generating sets which had to
start and run under full load whenever the mains supply failed and
nobody around to help them on thier way.

Had I relied on the standard Mazda temperature gauge, it would
probably not have moved from the infamous 11 O'clock position
and I would never have known the extent of the temperature
difference across the cylinder head.

Sorry for the rant, but with regard to a previous contributer,
some ill considered comments irritate me.

Ben.

[widdowson2008]

Hi Ben
I'm a data (some say control) freak myself and like to know exactly what is happening where at any given time.
Is there a possibility of seeing some of your data? I truely would be interested.

[mikeonb4c]

Hi Ben
You say you are used to getting readings up to at least 127. Are you aware that the TM-2 will not show temperatures above 127?

I am well aware of the limitations of the TM-2 but I would also add that
I have 3 very accurate thermocouples fitted, one in the cylinder head in
the second spare bolt hole which ACCURATELY monitors the aluminium
temperature and is not influenced by the exhaust manifold, a second one
is fitted to the flow exit close to the Mazda temperature gauge sensor
which allows me to calibrate my modified Mazda gauge, and a third one
which is glued to the rear of the cylinder head. I might add that I have
2 Bongos, both fitted with identical sensors which allows me to make
comparisons.

Contrary to Lindeeloo's suggestion, I am not in the habit of "flirting with
disaster", in fact I am probably more careful than the majority of owners
which is why I amuse myself finding out what happens when I push my
Bongo to the limits. My example I quoted above was on my way to Looe
last year and decided to push it hard up Telegraph Hill which I normally
never do. About three quarters of the way up I was down to about 40
MPH and the TM-2 was indicating 125 C, the thermocouple was showing
126 C, the coolant temperature was around 105 C. By the time I got to
the top, the TM-2 had reached it's limits and the thermocouple was up
to 132 C. the coolant thermocouple remained around 105 C. and I was
doing less than 35 MPH in a low gear. I also take the trouble to record
any results of what I observe which is a habit I had to develop during
almost 50 years of my working life in the environmental control industry
which also involved Industrial stand by generating sets which had to
start and run under full load whenever the mains supply failed and
nobody around to help them on thier way.

Had I relied on the standard Mazda temperature gauge, it would
probably not have moved from the infamous 11 O'clock position
and I would never have known the extent of the temperature
difference across the cylinder head.

Sorry for the rant, but with regard to a previous contributer,
some ill considered comments irritate me.

Ben.

You're just what this project needs.. If I had to take a chance I'd say publish the normal ranges just from what your findings are because (1) you have the right approach and (2) you are taking data from more than one Bongo both of which have identical sensors.

I was also very interested to read your recordings of cooant temp, which seems to serve as a reminder that the cooling system will work hard to compensate when extra heat is generated. What I can't work out is whether that makes measuring coolant temp less useful than measuring how heat develops in the block, because I wonder whether an inadequately functioning cooling system experiences a sudden temperature rise which is measured almost (if not after) when it it is too late, because the total heat energy now contained in the metal stuff is now too much for the cooling system to dissipate anyway. A rapid boil over may well ensue, maybe even just after engine has been stopped (one or two peeps have experienced this I think) becuase then, circulation has stopped too so locally, coolant may boil and cause explosive expansion/pressure in hte system.

[mikexgough]

But not to put a damper on the TM2 location/temperature/saved my engine debate.........why don't the very careful and sensible Japanese fit any extra Temp gauges and level devices......?

They must be okay with the Bongo's cooling system or they most certainly would.......but some do overheat when pipes and hoses leak/burst/corrode.......take a look at the Japanese Bongo owners sites......and how many Bongo's have anything fitted when they are imported?......plenty of Satnav/TV's, Bull bars and the like......but nothing to do with the cooling system.....

[widdowson2008]

Mike - I think a possible reason for these devices not being fitted in the original spec is that the Bongo was made for the Japanese market of 10/15 years ago, and Japanese motorists are encouraged to change their vehicles after a couple of years. In fact, I think they are financially DISCOURAGED to keep older vehicles.
Assuming the above info is correct (which is as it was explained to me), the Japanese owners will not have experienced older corroding pipework, and therefore they would have had no reason to fit such devices.

As you know, I have spent many hours gathering information on the cooling system over the last 2 months (and still am)
The way I currently view the system is that it was very well designed and able to easily cope with the extremes of Japanese weather. BUT, we have to remember that most systems are 10 years old (or more) and components get a little tired. I think that is the reason we need to be a little bit more vigilant with the system.

[mikeonb4c]

Mike - I think a possible reason for these devices not being fitted in the original spec is that the Bongo was made for the Japanese market of 10/15 years ago, and Japanese motorists are encouraged to change their vehicles after a couple of years. In fact, I think they are financially DISCOURAGED to keep older vehicles.
Assuming the above info is correct (which is as it was explained to me), the Japanese owners will not have experienced older corroding pipework, and therefore they would have had no reason to fit such devices.

As you know, I have spent many hours gathering information on the cooling system over the last 2 months (and still am)
The way I currently view the system is that it was very well designed and able to easily cope with the extremes of Japanese weather. BUT, we have to remember that most systems are 10 years old (or more) and components get a little tired. I think that is the reason we need to be a little bit more vigilant with the system.

I think you are right Steve - thats the conclusion several peeps on here have come to. It was, as they say, 'fit for purpose' for the intended market and the designers gaze would not have been on what might become an Achilles heel 15 years hence.

[2sticks]

Is there a possibility of seeing some of your data?, I truly would be interested.

My data is available to anyone who may be interested, however, you should
be aware that it's specific to me, my driving style, atmospheric conditions,
and the ability of my cooling system to conduct the heat generated and
dispose of it through the various radiators in the cooling system. If you
accept that my cooling components are as near perfect as I can get them, I
can only offer the previous example of the maximum temperatures I might
expect, under the maximum load I could apply with an ambient temperature of
around 25 Celsius. Anything else or other measuring points would have
resulted in different data. Taking into consideration the amount of work
you have put into the cooling system diagrams, you must obviously realise
that driving locally in freezing conditions and both cab heating systems
working hard to keep you warm would result in the coolant thermostat hardly
opening - if ever - and we would observe a completely different set of
minimum data. In between these two extremes there is probably infinite
data sets and how you could organise this into coherent tables to enable
a user to predict an impending disaster is beyond my interest.

Having said that, you could start with recording the two extremes and fixed
measuring points, one of which should be a relatively stable and consistent
point on the cylinder head, I have as yet not recorded a minimum extreme
although I do know what my gauges are telling me, my antifreeze and
corrosion inhibitors are changed regularly so I have no problem in that
direction.

If you think I can be of any further help, please ask me or perhaps
TGP - whose opinions I trust - could join in.

[mikexgough]

Steve..... some of the Jap sites I visit and BDC will support this as he now surfs them too.....are current.....and owners are still using their Bongo's today some 10/15 years old.....without any devices........and the temp gauge at 11 o'clock

If anyone who wants to surf the Jap sites feel free to pm me for the internet addresses.....happy to share

I am also happy if folks want to spend cash out on their Bongo's on monitoring devices......and they can choose from several.....BUT IMHO they need to make an informed choice not one made from fear........
For me the best way is to lift the bonnet and check your levels....... as an example.....my LCA, good as it is, didn't go off to show low coolant when my radiator went at the seams BUT I smelt the antifreeze when I got out of the Bongo which forced me to investigate.......am I too vigilant or just a proper Driver?......never been one to fill up, turn the key and expect all to be well...that is just plain stupid....
I just wondered why the gadget hungry Japanese never fitted any aftermarket devices to the coolant system.....of all the gauges they fit most are Turbo Boost ones.....

[haydn callow]

Mike...why did it not go off???? was the amount lost before you noticed the smell so little the level in the tank hardly dropped at all ?? It would normally go off after losing about half a pint.

[mikeonb4c]

Is there a possibility of seeing some of your data?, I truly would be interested.

My data is available to anyone who may be interested, however, you should
be aware that it's specific to me, my driving style, atmospheric conditions,
and the ability of my cooling system to conduct the heat generated and
dispose of it through the various radiators in the cooling system. If you
accept that my cooling components are as near perfect as I can get them, I
can only offer the previous example of the maximum temperatures I might
expect, under the maximum load I could apply with an ambient temperature of
around 25 Celsius. Anything else or other measuring points would have
resulted in different data. Taking into consideration the amount of work
you have put into the cooling system diagrams, you must obviously realise
that driving locally in freezing conditions and both cab heating systems
working hard to keep you warm would result in the coolant thermostat hardly
opening - if ever - and we would observe a completely different set of
minimum data. In between these two extremes there is probably infinite
data sets and how you could organise this into coherent tables to enable
a user to predict an impending disaster is beyond my interest.

Having said that, you could start with recording the two extremes and fixed
measuring points, one of which should be a relatively stable and consistent
point on the cylinder head, I have as yet not recorded a minimum extreme
although I do know what my gauges are telling me, my antifreeze and
corrosion inhibitors are changed regularly so I have no problem in that
direction.

If you think I can be of any further help, please ask me or perhaps
TGP - whose opinions I trust - could join in.

I think the trick is to simply to start logging data and making some preliminary notes alongisde each set of data. So a form might say:

GENERAL INFORMATION:
1) Type of engine [2.5TD] [2.5 V6] [2.0 petrol]
2) Age of car:
3) Mileage of car
4) Condition of cooling system [header tank clean] [header tank stained]
5) Recent cooling system critical repairs (tick more than one if needed)
[radiator] [water pump] [thermostat] [new head/head gasket]

JOURNEY DETAILS
6) Record temperature observed
7) What were outside temp. conditions like [v. cold] [cold] [warm] [hot] [v hot]
8.) Travelling conditons [urban, top/start] [open road, hilly] [open road, flat] [motorway]
9) Loading conditions [lightly loaded] [average load] [full load]
10) Towing [trailer] [caravan, small] [caravan, large]
11) Driving style [relaxed, slow, low RPM] [moderate] [Pressing on, high RPM]

Design a simple database or spreadsheet to record returns on and then various analytical techniques can be applied to the data as it grows. Users should be encouraged to make several observations in different conditions (design the form with space for entering several journeys).

If Haydn has got good customer records for who has purchased TM2s, a nice letter and QS form (snailmail or email) might get some data flowing in.

As databank grows patterns - hopefully - may emerge, and possibly 'normal' and 'abnormal' temps may be identified. It sounds like both your Bongos would be good baseline examples of what the figures should be in a healthy Bongo.

[mikexgough]

Mike...why did it not go off???? was the amount lost before you noticed the smell so little the level in the tank hardly dropped at all ?? It would normally go off after losing about half a pint.

Goodness knows...... It still does the beep check thingy.....so must be working okay....perhaps I am too "Old School"

[haydn callow]

I'm afraid Haydn has more than enough to do just now.......9 phone calls to-day from frantic owners with coolant gushing out/how do I bleed, plus the normal "alarm"
enquiries. Design a conservatory and apply for planning. Take the dogs out twice.
Grand kids to/from school. Put 20 lca kits together..order fresh stock of componants.
Yesterday was much the same as was Sunday. Not a problem but I don't have a lot of time left.
On top of that I would have to go back over 2 years of records to get the info required.
Best just put a appeal out on this forum with a "poll" type thing.
Sorry chaps...bit stressed to-day...supposed to be retired.

Oh !! and I got a RC helicopter for Xmas which is still in the box.

[mikexgough]

Is there a possibility of seeing some of your data?, I truly would be interested.

My data is available to anyone who may be interested, however, you should
be aware that it's specific to me, my driving style, atmospheric conditions,
and the ability of my cooling system to conduct the heat generated and
dispose of it through the various radiators in the cooling system. If you
accept that my cooling components are as near perfect as I can get them, I
can only offer the previous example of the maximum temperatures I might
expect, under the maximum load I could apply with an ambient temperature of
around 25 Celsius. Anything else or other measuring points would have
resulted in different data. Taking into consideration the amount of work
you have put into the cooling system diagrams, you must obviously realise
that driving locally in freezing conditions and both cab heating systems
working hard to keep you warm would result in the coolant thermostat hardly
opening - if ever - and we would observe a completely different set of
minimum data. In between these two extremes there is probably infinite
data sets and how you could organise this into coherent tables to enable
a user to predict an impending disaster is beyond my interest.

Having said that, you could start with recording the two extremes and fixed
measuring points, one of which should be a relatively stable and consistent
point on the cylinder head, I have as yet not recorded a minimum extreme
although I do know what my gauges are telling me, my antifreeze and
corrosion inhibitors are changed regularly so I have no problem in that
direction.

If you think I can be of any further help, please ask me or perhaps
TGP - whose opinions I trust - could join in.

I think the trick is to simply to start logging data and making some preliminary notes alongisde each set of data. So a form might say:

GENERAL INFORMATION:
1) Type of engine [2.5TD] [2.5 V6] [2.0 petrol]
2) Age of car:
3) Mileage of car
4) Condition of cooling system [header tank clean] [header tank stained]
5) Recent cooling system critical repairs (tick more than one if needed)
[radiator] [water pump] [thermostat] [new head/head gasket]

JOURNEY DETAILS
6) Record temperature observed
7) What were outside temp. conditions like [v. cold] [cold] [warm] [hot] [v hot]
8.) Travelling conditons [urban, top/start] [open road, hilly] [open road, flat] [motorway]
9) Loading conditions [lightly loaded] [average load] [full load]
10) Towing [trailer] [caravan, small] [caravan, large]
11) Driving style [relaxed, slow, low RPM] [moderate] [Pressing on, high RPM]

Design a simple database or spreadsheet to record returns on and then various analytical techniques can be applied to the data as it grows. Users should be encouraged to make several observations in different conditions (design the form with space for entering several journeys).

If Haydn has got good customer records for who has purchased TM2s, a nice letter and QS form (snailmail or email) might get some data flowing in.

As databank grows patterns - hopefully - may emerge, and possibly 'normal' and 'abnormal' temps may be identified. It sounds like both your Bongos would be good baseline examples of what the figures should be in a healthy Bongo.

oooeerr Mike....... That is as bad as a Local Government Office and an NHS hospital......collecting all that data.....
Will there be a chance to drive and enjoy the Bongo....

[haydn callow]

Mike's the man for the Job..!! gets my vote..