MotorMax coolant enhancer

[Ron Miel]

The motormax solution sounds very much like "water wetter" as advocated by jamie of Di&Jamie. He said he's had very good reductions in operating temps, especially whilst towing.

The promotion of MotorMax specifically says "not water wetter", although it clearly does the same job - perhaps better, judging by heated (pun not intended) inputs on the subject recently elsewhere. Anyway, it works

[Ron Miel]

The motormax solution sounds very much like "water wetter" as advocated by jamie of Di&Jamie. He said he's had very good reductions in operating temps, especially whilst towing.

The promotion of MotorMax specifically says "not water wetter", although it clearly does the same job - perhaps better, judging by heated (pun not intended) inputs on the subject recently elsewhere. Anyway, it works

Have been reading this up this evening, and can now offer the following explanation of the apparent difference between MotorMax and Water Wetter - which I hope may be of interest. Anyway, it interests me :

Water Wetter works by reducing the surface tension of water (like a detergent does), providing a better contact interface with the engine and radiator metal surfaces at the molecular level, therefore conducting heat energy from metal to water, then back to metal, more efficiently. However, it does not claim to improve the "thermal capacity" of water - therefore the intrinsic ability of coolant to carry away engine generated heat energy, without a given coolant temperature rise, is not increased. (Thermal capacity is the ability of a substance to absorb heat energy, relative to the substance's own increase in temperature - raised thermal capacity means less temperature rise for a given input of heat energy). The efficiency gain in coolant with Water Wetter, while very useful, is therefore limited to the amount which the improved metal/water/metal interface transfer rates provide but the absolute heat energy transfer capability, within the coolant flow, for a given coolant temperature rise, is not improved.

The changed molecular structure of coolant containing MotorMax, however, is claimed to not only provide the same surface tension modification (therefore improved interface thermal conductivity/transfer) as Water Wetter, but to also greatly increase its thermal capacity. This turns the coolant into a much more effective "heat sink", able to carry off a lot more engine heat energy to be dissipated by the radiator, without the same coolant temperature rise as would be the case for coolant not containing MotorMax.

[Ron Miel]

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A small warning, on another tack:

apole and I have been exchanging PMs - it seems that not all peeps will necessarily get the same elimination of indicated temperature rise after engine switch off, that I have. I think this may be a function of exact placement of any external temperature sensor on the engine block (as opposed to the Mazda temperature gauge's sensor bulb, which extends into the cooling jacket) but there are still checks for us to do, before confirming that or not.

Andy (apole) had told me that his V6's after switch off engine temperature rise is still significant, unlike mine which no longer rises at all since installing Motormax - from which I had inferred elimination of hot spots, as they claim.

However, I couldn't remember exactly where the sensor for my TM-2 engine temperature monitor is bolted to the engine block's surface, although I knew it was close to the Mazda gauge's sensor at the top front of the engine - and I wondered whether the difference could be one of exact sensor location (Andy's being bolted directly to the main top front water outlet chamber). That's not the explanation though, as I found today that my sensor is attached under the same bolt. Apart from the fact that I'm using Mobil 1 0W-40 high performance synthetic oil (and I don't think Andy is), there should be no difference between our engines, both also running on LPG. Anybody any suggestion for the difference, bearing in mind that Andy is otherwise seeing the same gains with MotorMax as I am?

The other thing I was going to check was the exact position of the aircon condenser/radiator, relative to the main engine cooling radiator. MotorMax claim that the lower temperature of radiator coolant flow reduces heat transferred to the aircon condenser/radiator, improving aircon performance in summer. I checked today, confirming that the Bongo V6 aircon condenser/radiator, although mounted forward of the engine radiator and therefore not subject to convected heat transfer in the airflow, is certainly close enough for efficient radiant heat coupling. Therefore, I hope that the MotorMax improvement in aircon performance (including less aircon engine load) will be seen in the summer - if we get one.

Thanks to Andy, BTW, for introducing us to MotorMax in the first place.

[mikeonb4c]

The motormax solution sounds very much like "water wetter" as advocated by jamie of Di&Jamie. He said he's had very good reductions in operating temps, especially whilst towing.

The promotion of MotorMax specifically says "not water wetter", although it clearly does the same job - perhaps better, judging by heated (pun not intended) inputs on the subject recently elsewhere. Anyway, it works

Have been reading this up this evening, and can now offer the following explanation of the apparent difference between MotorMax and Water Wetter - which I hope may be of interest. Anyway, it interests me :

Water Wetter works by reducing the surface tension of water (like a detergent does), providing a better contact interface with the engine and radiator metal surfaces at the molecular level, therefore conducting heat energy from metal to water, then back to metal, more efficiently. However, it does not claim to improve the "thermal capacity" of water - therefore the intrinsic ability of coolant to carry away engine generated heat energy, without a given coolant temperature rise, is not increased. (Thermal capacity is the ability of a substance to absorb heat energy, relative to the substance's own increase in temperature - raised thermal capacity means less temperature rise for a given input of heat energy). The efficiency gain in coolant with Water Wetter, while very useful, is therefore limited to the amount which the improved metal/water/metal interface transfer rates provide but the absolute heat energy transfer capability, within the coolant flow, for a given coolant temperature rise, is not improved.

The changed molecular structure of coolant containing MotorMax, however, is claimed to not only provide the same surface tension modification (therefore improved interface thermal conductivity/transfer) as Water Wetter, but to also greatly increase its thermal capacity. This turns the coolant into a much more effective "heat sink", able to carry off a lot more engine heat energy to be dissipated by the radiator, without the same coolant temperature rise as would be the case for coolant not containing MotorMax.

Interesting post. That being the case, I wonder what suitably unreactive, reliable soluble, thermal capacity raising chemical is that that has been used in order to make up the magic concoction. Could it, for example, be something like lead chloride? Might it be possible to achieve this result much cheaper by making up a solution your self from the right ingredients?

The theory behind the water-wetting stuff surprises me a little. I struggle to imagine that detergent can effect such a critical difference to heat transfer. Hmmmmm

[Ron Miel]

Interesting post. That being the case, I wonder what suitably unreactive, reliable soluble, thermal capacity raising chemical is that that has been used in order to make up the magic concoction. Could it, for example, be something like lead chloride? Might it be possible to achieve this result much cheaper by making up a solution your self from the right ingredients?

The theory behind the water-wetting stuff surprises me a little. I struggle to imagine that detergent can effect such a critical difference to heat transfer. Hmmmmm

Well, it's not Fairy Liquid - probably a bit more to it than that. MotorMax is entirely plant derived, ph neutral and biodegradeable - that's all they'll say. However, plants have such incredible ability to perform in various climatic extremes that I don't find it at all surprising they've found one or more with impressive heat sink capability - anyway, not lead chloride, nor any other chemical base.

[mikeonb4c]

Interesting post. That being the case, I wonder what suitably unreactive, reliable soluble, thermal capacity raising chemical is that that has been used in order to make up the magic concoction. Could it, for example, be something like lead chloride? Might it be possible to achieve this result much cheaper by making up a solution your self from the right ingredients?

The theory behind the water-wetting stuff surprises me a little. I struggle to imagine that detergent can effect such a critical difference to heat transfer. Hmmmmm

Well, it's not Fairy Liquid - probably a bit more to it than that. MotorMax is entirely plant derived, ph neutral and biodegradeable - that's all they'll say. However, plants have such incredible ability to perform in various climatic extremes that I don't find it at all surprising they've found one or more with impressive heat sink capability - anyway, not lead chloride, nor any other chemical base.

Ah yes, forgot they'd mentioned it was plant derived. Scratch that one then

Just to clarify, the reference to detergents was in relation to water-wetting agents. It sounds remarkable that changing the surface tension and improving surface setting can improve heat transfer at a molecular level. Remarkable, but evidently quite possible.

[mikeonb4c]

Aha!

Might have found out what it could be. Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coolant

...and clock on the word 'Betaine' somewhere down in the article. I'm off to crush some sugar beet and use the extract

[mikeonb4c]

Bingo?

http://www.thermera.com/Files/IIR%20pap ... Fortum.pdf

[Ron Miel]

Bingo?

http://www.thermera.com/Files/IIR%20pap ... Fortum.pdf

No, I don't think so Mike. Figure 3 in that paper shows the specific heat capacity (aka thermal capacity) of a betaine/water mix as inferior to either ethylene glycol/water or propylene glycol/water mixes (i.e., conventional motor vehicle coolant mixes). Main functions of betaine in industrial and building coolant applications, as it says, are to reduce toxicity and corrosion - while maintaining similar heat transfer performance relative to other coolants.

The MotorMax formula is protected as a secret under US legislation, and cannot therefore be something like betaine, already in the public domain. My guess is that it uses material obtained from plants like desert cacti, which in their natural environment have to withstand huge heat energy inputs and ambient temperature changes on a 24 hour cycle.

[mikexgough]

I look forward to hear how folks get on with this product over a period of time...... sounds interesting and I have seen these types of products in Motorsport circles...

[mikeonb4c]

Oh well, it looks like the choices are Motormax, Motormax or Motormax

[Ron Miel]

Oh well, it looks like the choices are Motormax, Motormax or Motormax

......or spend the money on a few bevvies instead

[hembramacho]

Hi guys, is it just a case of tipping this stuff into the header tank and run the vehicle , is it that easy
If so i wouldn't mind giving it a try cause i run on LPG as well

Iz

Here's what Haydn Callow recommended in another thread on this subject:

"What you suggest could work but sucking 1lt out may bring the coolant level down below the level of the "top" small pipe that enters the tank on the L/H side...doing this is a big No !!No !! as air will enter.
I would suck out as much as you can without exposing that pipe.....

Does anyone know which pipe this is referring to as I want to make sure before I attempt this. Is it the top or bottom as per pic, as the "top" one is not as "small" as the the lower one?



Cheers

Andrew

[wonkanoby]

top one

if level drops below top of it then air can get in

[hembramacho]

top one

if level drops below top of it then air can get in

Thanks for that. I thought as much 'cos that would make the most sense, but just wanted to be 100%.

Cheers

Andrew