Is it possible to add coolant enhancer

[karlos]

Perhaps you should read my reply to your thread in bongo chat - although I'm not an expert on this topic.

I seem to remember someone who knows exactly what they are talking about telling me about this - as we have guys that use this kind of stuff.

I recall he said destilled water conducts heat best un tampered with but for obvious reason we all on the road add antil freeze which has several addatives - anti corrosion in some- lots of chemical names we dont understand but they usually all have anti foaming etc.

In motorsport some inclucing my self run pure distilled water as this will not foam and corrosion is not a problem as everything gets pulled apart so often, I know water does not lubricate water pump seals in the same way- thats why most add a weak/single addatives -such as water wetter (obviously not practicle for road use).

As normal antifreeze works well on road use and running temps are ok - I would not add addatives that will effect the antifreeze (which they will do if they effect running temps) - the fact we run such a strong mix of chemicals in our road cars anyway compremises some cooling efficanticy in return for frost protection, and corrosion resistance and long life-

My understanding of what this chap (expert from top top racing fluids supplier who actually knows what all the chemical are in all this stuff)told me is distilled water conducts very well so I presume like electricity? If you add some thing to it - maybe it alters the resistance of water or maybe just resistance of flow if as the viscocity changes? Maybe haden could clarify?

If the water does not conduct as well with anti freeze in it either electrically or will not flow as fast? I presume it does not conduct heat so well either.

The guy that provides the race manufacturers with oil-water-brake fluid-coolant addatives told me something along those lines any way was a while ago(when I needed to know how to run my race car i.e the same as a road car or not?.)

The only reason why in racing they use anything in water is to help prevent corrsion or furring, freezing so the levels of anti freeze or addatives are much weaker and I believe need changing more regular.

On top of that I believe the likes of water wetter although provides corrosion addatives to plain distilled water it does little to improve running temps in those circumstances.

I suspect it what it actually does when used with road cars is thins anti freeze etc..or increases those properties already in it, to make the cooling more efficiant which may lower the frost protection? worse still cause a dodgy reaction-mixing or organic and chemical compounds)

If the bongo works (correct running temp)why change it-seems risky.

I wouldnt, if so I'd still to well know brands like below!

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ ... e=RED80204

Oh and speaking form expierence if you can avoid bleeding the bongo-leave it alone.

[mikeonb4c]

Interesting to read up on ethylene glycol and its properties when mixed with water. Seems nothing - not even plain water - is simple when it comes to cooling. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol

By elevating the boiling point of coolant, or its thermal capacity, and on the assumption it doesn't have a detrimental effect on its conductivity or flow rate, I can see that more heat energy could be conducted to the cooling zone (radiator) where due to the higher temp. gradient over the air being used to conduct away the heat transferred to it by the cooling zone, a greater rate of heat extraction from the engine could be achieved. Which makes it a puzzle why racing drivers should prefer plain water. I suppose that provided there is a sufficiently powerful cooling zone (radiator) then water alone is quite fine, and presents fewer complications and less expense?

We need TGP for this one

[The Great Pretender]

A healthy Bongo needs nothing more than 30% anti freeze in the UK, this stops the waterways corroding and is a low enough concentration not to inhibit cooling. Running any engine without an inhibitor is foolish and will reduce efficiency over time. If you wish to race with your Bongo I can offer for a short time (before JML buy me out) a head saving device that can improove cooling..............Simmplsss................

[karlos]

In motorsport cost is of little importance when you consider the amount of periodic engine rebuilds and oil changes with topgrade oils costing £70 for 5 ltrs at club level. thats £140 a day or 280 a weekend

I am not saying I understood what this chap told me completely but
The simple answer is .

Anti freeze reduces the abilty to disispate heat. some will argue other wise. Some forums will state that are available to general public. "Running pure water with no addatives is only suitable to 100 per cent race engines" WHICH IS TRUE race engines do not run anything that is cheap to the detriment of performance hence if running with antifreeze was better we would all do that.

google - is distilled or de ionised water bettter at cooling than that with antifreeze.you get the usual contredictions but if you read on you can see the informed people who have tested it.

(our guy can tell you each manufacturers chemiclals, weaknesses and strengths that make up what ever product we use) "that is his only job -some kind of chemical engineer" so I suspect he knows what he is talking about he works for a well known company that make this type of stuff.)

I looked it up after making this post to make sure I was at least partly right.I see that his information as I had understand it was correct - MIKE you dont need to over complecate things with techno babble, about thermal efficancy!

as my post said it is not possible with road engines we all run anti freeze which does lots of thing raises the freezing point mainly. because of the chemiclas present in antifreeze it has other chemicals to balance that out like anti foaming adgents etc.. Anti freeze as I'm reassured by the internet too therfore lowers the efffectiveness of a cooling/lowers the boiling point in a pressurise system - hence why racing cars run pure water and are so light and can run smaller rads and less fluid in respect to.(formula cars)

I run pure water (in a race car)as Instructed by our supplier who works with all the major race teams - although I'm getting a bit twitchy about what it might be doing to the wter pump -so I may add water wetter to aid anti corrosion -but it does not protect against frost. I will not use anti freeze in it not neccessary - nor does any one else I know thats a lot of people!

I believe products like that mentioned by the poster which is comparible with water wetter -try to combat some of the offset effects of using anti freeze thats why in the demon tweeks advert it mentions it reduces running temp in "coolant" not in water.

I POSTED the fact that if the said addative does something to the antifreeze to make it disipate heat quicker -therefore improves the time the engine warms up it must effect the other values of the antifreeze as you are modifying it your not modifying the percentace of water in it.

So I personally would beware -I run the normal level of the type of anti freeze the forum recommendeed in the bongo and the running temp of my bongo is spot on -
the bongo is not a racing car-so why try to add chemicals to lower running temps or increase thermal efficantcy when you have anti freez in it anyway.

Such ideas on a road vehicle are refurred to as bodges to to hide overheating problems.

[karlos]

I am not trying to suggest we should run pure water - but that adding aditional addatives is going down the route of racing where for efficancy pure water is used where freezimg is not an issue. Standard methods have been used for years so why try to do something different and presume these chemicals would not be added tothe anti freeze as stock if they were so benefcial.

I've looked it up again - I am a little confused, I see from one thread gycol rasies the boiling point of the coolant in a sealed system? (although in the likes of chilled water sytems it is used to stop freezing)-obviously necessarry if you dont want ice in your system. - I presume that glycol raises the boiling point of the other agents in coolant /antifreeze mix is used not that gycol would actually raise the boiling point of water in a sealed sytem.

I believe the pure water theory(which has no relevance to a road vehicle) but as the thread is about effecantcy -just efficancey- is based on. water with coolant in can not dissapate heat as well.

The relavance of this was to suggest addatives try to restore anti freeze to a more water like state -in my belief - anyway I would bet it reduces the freezing point!

Quote- NOT RELEVANT FOR ROAD USE

Just a technical note, antifreeze added to water decreases the ability of the coolant to dissipate heat. A 50/50 mixture although not as efficient at removing heat, does have corrosion inhibitors, lowers the freezing point and increases the boiling point of the coolant mix. Modern antifreezes are primarily designed for closed, pressurized cooling systems. -- Richard

Straight water will dissipate heat way better than any mixture of water and antifreeze. Once you start to add antifreeze to water, its cooling ability will be less. The best coolant is straight water. -- Bill

NOT RELAVANT FOR ROAD USE -But neither is modifying the existing properties of antifreeze if you put that in.

[karlos]

sorry got carried away this morning - red bull for breakfast!-

I should have originally just said "leave it alone it works fine as it is" plus bleeding the bongo system if required is not much fun either.

I hope my babble makes sense (despite being once again unesssary explanitary)and no one desides to go on the attack - You basically arguing with information from one of the giants in this field-which would not publish this-, despite the fact I dont really care but from testing I can rivel he is right in the instances we work with. I do not understand the science.

NOT Relevant
Just that a car that weighs close to nothing at over 10,000 rpm will run at 80-90 deg c with just water in it at very high speed for 26 mins. adding water wetter does not drop the running temp - no one runs anti freeze, because it is not required and although I have not tested it - every one has told me it's "not required and will increase running temp" which will have been tested at some point on the circuit - maybe by only 2 degs or so. But in our case I think 5 or 10 plus deg rise equals a loss of several horse power,

[bub devlin]

Ah yes, Red Bull.
My six year old son has quite a taste for this beverage. I normally send him out to chase fast cars until the symptom wears off.

[The Great Pretender]

Ok, let’s inject a few facts not gleaned from the internet. The reason for adding inhibitors is to stop oxides building up in the waterways. A build up of 12th of an inch can reduce heat transfer by up to 40%.
The two base types of inhibitor are chromates and non chromates. Sodium chromate and potassium dichromate are most commonly used in systems without anti-freeze.
Non chromate inhibitors (borates, nitrates, nitrites) provide protection in water and systems with anti-freeze.
Methyl alcohol base anti-freeze should not be used as it affects hoses and pump seals, it also has a low boiling point.
Ethylene glycol based anti-freeze when used at 30% does not need further inhibitor added. Solutions of over 50% will adversely affect heat transfer.
Pressure in the system will raise the boiling point and increase efficiency this has been covered in the past.
What car are you running Karlos?

[bigdaddycain]

My understanding is that coolant (with anti-freeze) essentially speeds up the flow of water by lowering it's viscosity, the quicker the flow, the less of a heat sink effect is acheived as it runs through the rad, the same principle applies as it runs through the galleries in the head,it takes less heat with it as it passes through it more quickly. Some could argue that where it takes less heat away, it also remains cooler on the whole as it's not contaminated with too much heat in the first place, this is by it's very nature counter productive,as the coolant's primary task is heat dissipation, then lubrication, followed by frost/ice prevention. I too run 30% coolant to water ratio, his reasoning is sound. There is some confusion lost in translation due to a sticker on the bongo promoting the use of a 50/50 ratio of coolant to water, this is based on the factory specs, using the factory coolant. Remember the bongo was never supposed to run using euro based coolant (differs from asian coolant), by all means use a 50/50 ratio in japan, but not in europe! Bongo's run hot enough as it it without compounding the problem by the use of to high a ratio of coolant,essentially making the bongo run hotter than it should as karlos & Mel rightly points out.

[karlos]

red bull - neccessary evil for those of us who live of leaves and fish and do not sleep so much- to be light enough to do something we are passionate about. I weigh 75kg next march I need to be 70 kg as some are as light as 65kg.
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Great pretender

- my race car has a steering wheel with buttons that scroll through a dash that records data downloadable on a lap top and is slower than f1 but quicker than f3 - lap times, ride heigth of 25 to 50mm,slicks and wings

(obviously to get to this point I have been involved with lots of different things). -if you know motorsport you will have an idea of what I'm driving.

engineering wise Ive been involved with many of the top forms of racing.

I can build something from components with general motorsport fabrication, I spanner, electrical and mechanical, I've been working in set up and testing, now/next year I'm driving again.

As for all the fine detail (spec on consumerables)I get given that which is relevant from the experts-I will use castrol as an example-, but that is not one of them- They visit us with the correct product for our requirements - we buy direct and they work with us on certain issues like if we can not get oil pressure at running tempreture etc..
That is who, not castrol- I asked about coolant some time ago as the company make addatives etc.
He said informally- actually just water is best for cooling if you want to put something to stop deposits building up we do this stuff..... I have had that confirmed buy others too.. (racing only)


Oh and obviously build up in the water ways builds up and restricts flow - I'm lead to believe de -ionised water or distilled? has contamination and electro particles removed which prevent this. -Either, way I'm gonna stick some addative in to help protect for this reason in my race car but no anti freeze - If anti freeze were necessary every one would be doing it in the two championships I'm eligable for.

I am not an expert on the subject at all (as people specialise)- I build a car and because of it's precsion - I have to take advice from experts in certain areas - not the local car shop.

The factory which build the 90 per cent of components from scratch have specialist suppliers with all the data on the products,every thing gets tested. I can not go into detail because it's not my place to do that.
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The quote about anti freeze was not mine one pasted from a different forum on this subject the 50/50 mix was not specific to the bongo as it was not from this forum.
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Daddycain - I can not see that anitfreeze thins the water and hence mine did not look as thin as water(as I think richard and bob quoted in that last thread of mine) -I suspect that the viscocity mixed with water is thicker,therefore any percentage of it gradually lessens the effectivness of cooling -that a side a system running on pure antifreeze might not overheat? -obviously it needs to present to stop freezing and it's other effects so is a neccessary evil -not required in racing.

my point if adding antifreze already makes cooling for what ever reason less effective -why even bother trying to add addative to improve this as it must change the anti freeze as pure water is suposed to be best for heat loss only so that percentage the water part can not be improved?

BONGHO GUYS

Do not focus on the pure water thing (was meant to illustrate if you want perfect cooling)

I was merely making the point to put additional addatives (to help running tempretures) when using antifreeze which already hinders the effeciantcy of cooling in return for the absoultely neccessary effect of stopping freezing up and corrosion amounst other things seems daft as the system is mildy flawed already with pure cooling efficantcy only in mind. not feezing or anything else

If a road car runs hot with the correct level of anti freeze/coolant in -than there is a problem. Trying to make a motor run cooler than its designed opperating temps is not clever too! If trying to make the heaters work faster buy adding additional chemicals- reduces running temp, I would be warey as any product that does this alters the performance of the chemicals that are meant to be present in a road car for general use all year round.

As I said if it works as it is so leave it alone - if it doesnt work right fix it, do not modify something else to makea problem situation better by perhaps masking a problem

[Ron Miel]

....MIKE you dont need to over complecate things with techno babble, about thermal efficancy!

Such a rude young man - and so much babble, techno and otherwise, from him

[karlos]

normal response from ron then-

I didnt mention ratios and radiators using offically terminaology (as has got me in the trouble in the past.- Just if water is more efficiant than water and anti freeze mixed for removing heat? - adding enhancers to antifreeze seems a waste of time as the manufactures of antifreeze would do that if it did not compremise the product.

Plus as I have access to approximately 180 cars that run pure water or single addatives to modify cooling and possibley a whole lot more if I put a posting on other championship websites that I have been involved with, I suspect. I can get as a law of averages a fairly accurate picture of what the type of product this thread started about.

Ron can you? No probably not because people with road cars do not do this sort of messing about because it is not required, which was the whole point I was making in the first place.

Was not a dig at Mike, I know he put a technical thread up to link to a discussion (I read his info via his link)- but I'm aware thinks have to be kept simple as on here so I made a point not to make it more technical buy using words to discribe components that are not the names normal people use.

Even if I just said donot contaminate your antifreeze mix with other unecessary addatives I would be drawn into a discussion -

The conclusion is a weaker anti freeze mix 30 per cent is ok most seem to agree so the impression I got anti freeze has it's pros and it's cons were correct.

[mister munkey]

I give my cats water.

Coolant made my other cats die.



Which is about as relevant to the runnings of a Bongo vs a race car as some of these posts suggest.

Karlos, HONESTLY, not many on here cares what a Porsche drinks or how dropping 2psi on slicks might shave 0.5s off a lap at Silverstone, what we drive is a completely different animal. Your input on certain aspects of motoring is appreciated but . . .

Get off the high horse & join in.

[mikeonb4c]

....MIKE you dont need to over complecate things with techno babble, about thermal efficancy!

Such a rude young man - and so much babble, techno and otherwise, from him

OOoooh, well honestly. With my miniscule powers of observation, I'd not even noticed it

[mikeonb4c]

...but to put it in non techno babble terms:

If you can put hot lumps of iron into your fire instead of hot popcorn (cos iron holds a lot more heat than popcorn, volume for volume), then take them out and put them into your goods wagon, transport that extra weight (cos iron weighs more than popcorn, volume for volume) to a large pond of water without making the wagon run slower, then quench them in the pond, you can take a lot more heat away from the fire per wagonload. The colder the pond, the quicker they'll be cooled and ready to put back in the fire to steal more heat. Of course, if they steal too much heat, your fire with burn badly, so maybe put a signal on the track (we'll call that Thermostat Junction) to hold the wagon back until the fire is ready to have more heat taken from it.

Hmmmmm - I wonder if that worked