Drivers Window Failure

[mikeonb4c]

"Sounds to me like that wiring loom needs checking again, vibrations causing problems? how did you repair it?"

Hi Kirsty

Truth be told, in a very amateurish manner with connector blocks and tape I think. I guess I must have used a meter to work out which wire was broken. I guess you could be right, re vibrations etc, but it seems a bit odd the kind of 'regularity' of it working and not working.. eg if I am driving along, and I press the button, and nothing happens, so far it's been almost certain that if I leave it say, a minute, then try again, it does work.. Also it always works when the electrics are first turned on. And when its wound right down, its quite lilkely that it will not wind up, unless I turn off the electrics for a minute or so.. Intuitively if the wiring had come apart or there as break preventing it working, then the 'regular' working again after a minute would not apply. Or I am subject to quite a series of coincidences, if you know what I mean..

The symptoms mine displayed were EXTREMELY like this, and it did indeed turn out to be the switch. It is as though it developed a capacitance only capability i.e. poor conductivity meant it had to build up a charge before the switch could pass a current. Sounds bonkers I know but thats how it seemed at the time. I had to strip it right down to the electrical contacts bit and then clean that up (can't remember exactly how I did it now - might have been careful scraping with a Swan Morton pointed modelling knife blade to remove dark tarnish and reveal brigth metal, before cleaning up with meths on a cotton bud stick - I didn't want any residue leaving polish in there). Also, from memory, I swapped over the switch mechanical bits with a spare NeilT gave me as mine had a broken pivot which was making the switch not operate as well as it should (possibly caused by excess force when user tried to get window to come up by pulling the switch up too hard).

[MondoBongo]

Nope it doesn't sound bonkers to me,. in fact it makes sense ! Thats the word.. capacitance.., mine almost seems like it has to build up enough electricity in the circuit before it will do anything, from time to time, which it then loses again, once the jobs been done.. .. but I'm not electronically 'gifted' lets say.. so I didn't want to venture any home made theoriesfor fear of too much ridicule. .

Now that you mention it, my drivers switch is a little wonky (ie not quite as neat and springy as the passenger side one) so maybe there's something a bit broken in there. fom overzealous switching...

But I did have all the switch apart, and back together, when I sorted out the loom, so I'm not too fearful of having another dig around in there this time..

The bucket tip sounds very handy.

cheers !

[MondoBongo]

And now that you mention it, I guess that the undersealing job I did on it during May last year, including spraying waxoyl into the door panels, may not have help with gunky contacts !!

[mikeonb4c]

Nope it doesn't sound bonkers to me,. in fact it makes sense ! Thats the word.. capacitance.., mine almost seems like it has to build up enough electricity in the circuit before it will do anything, from time to time, which it then loses again, once the jobs been done.. .. but I'm not electronically 'gifted' lets say.. so I didn't want to venture any home made theoriesfor fear of too much ridicule. .

Now that you mention it, my drivers switch is a little wonky (ie not quite as neat and springy as the passenger side one) so maybe there's something a bit broken in there. fom overzealous switching...

But I did have all the switch apart, and back together, when I sorted out the loom, so I'm not too fearful of having another dig around in there this time..

The bucket tip sounds very handy.

cheers !

Definitely do it in a bucket (oooh matron!) and also I have found my modellers tools (small watchmakers screwdrivers and sharp/pointed balded modellers knife useful because you come across those tiny plastic snap latches that are holding plastic components together by locking into slots, and you have to carefully work two of those at the same time in order to open the casing. If you do have a broken plastic component then I'm not sure how repairable it is. I was lucky to have a spare switch I could cannibalise. Its very frustrating as you hate to spend £115 on a replacement switch and then find the problem is still not fixed

[missfixit70]

Is there anyone nearby that has a known working switch that you can just try in to see if it is that?

[MondoBongo]

now theres a thought Kirsty. There was a guy at my work today who I know has a bongo, I might ask him, but I'd need to keep hold of it for a bit, to get over the intermittence of the problem...

As for "and you have to carefully work two of those at the same time in order to open the casing" .. yes I think I broke a few of these tiny plastic luggy things attempting to clean my partners work laptop keyboard which our son had poured orange juice all over making for a very sticky and frustrating typing experience. I wish I'd not bothered. Orange juice ... accidental damage and insurance covered. Vandalised by well meaning partner, apparently HP want to charge £400 + to look at it ....

[jaylee]

I was an electrical mechanic in another life and am prety sure motor is short circuit, i can check againstother one, as i said the connector going in to the motor delivers the 12v and 12v reverse when switch operated so if motor functioned then it would run, mine was very hot i suspect it is jammed or the mechanism, i now need to work out how to get it all apart out of the door frame?

Hey up El_Bongo, looks like you got the heads up on me!
I found this for you... Which may give a little insight..?
http://www.lushprojects.com/bongopartsm ... mgno=.html
& this! http://www.lushprojects.com/bongopartsm ... mgno=.html

Let us know how you get on..?!!

[El_Bongo]

Thanks Jaylee
Drawing is exactly what i need now i can strip out the motor and run it with a 12v supply and check its not jammed etc, hopefuilly i will be able to get it back together again.
Mick

[jaylee]

Good luck with it Mick, but do check (if in the kaffuffle it got overlooked) the voltage from the drivers switch when NOT (operated) pulled up or depressed to the driver window motor...?
"A disturbance in the force" is telling me you may have a switch telling the motor to wind up constantly?? But then you would/might have a clicking sound in the door..? Not easy to hear with the engine running... Sorry to go on, i'm open to be wrong...

I look forward to the out come!

[El_Bongo]

Window now working, thanks to all especially Jaylee, after your last post had another go measuring voltages to motor and the switch gave 12V one way Zero in Middle and neg 12v the other. Yesterday there was nozero so my guess is the switch had in deed failed and was consistantly driving the window closed? this caused the motor to get red hot? and when i wentto go out last night i had a flat battery? so my assumption is that the switch (part mounted on the circuit board had become faulty, and after excercising it several times yesterday is now OK. possibly the reason it did not work yesterday after playing with it was the motor was very hot and possibly seized, I still cant understand how the fuse did not blow? but i will fit a lower rating so when it does i will know where to look.
Thanks again all.
Mick

I was so looking forward Not to ripping out all the gubbings now i will have to find something else to do like fix the sliding door which has never self closed and swap window blinds to liesure battery so i can open them without inserting ignition key.

[mikeonb4c]

Window now working, thanks to all especially Jaylee, after your last post had another go measuring voltages to motor and the switch gave 12V one way Zero in Middle and neg 12v the other. Yesterday there was nozero so my guess is the switch had in deed failed and was consistantly driving the window closed? this caused the motor to get red hot? and when i wentto go out last night i had a flat battery? so my assumption is that the switch (part mounted on the circuit board had become faulty, and after excercising it several times yesterday is now OK. possibly the reason it did not work yesterday after playing with it was the motor was very hot and possibly seized, I still cant understand how the fuse did not blow? but i will fit a lower rating so when it does i will know where to look.
Thanks again all.
Mick

I was so looking forward Not to ripping out all the gubbings now i will have to find something else to do like fix the sliding door which has never self closed and swap window blinds to liesure battery so i can open them without inserting ignition key.

Excellent. V. strange no fuse blew How did you get it all working again if hte switch was duff?

[El_Bongo]

How did i get it working again?

Good question and i can only assume that when i had the switch apart and moved the sliding bit back and forth it freed it up or cleaned the contacts or i got lucky, sometimes these things work in mysterious ways, like i am not sure if this problem caused the battery to go flat ?
perhaps i need a new Battery anyway i think itsstill the original Panasonic Japanese one so its done well 10 Years?

Mick

[jaylee]

I was so looking forward Not to ripping out all the gubbings now i will have to find something else to do like fix the sliding door which has never self closed and swap window blinds to liesure battery so i can open them without inserting ignition key.

Mick, your model may not have the soft close feature.. Should have 5 pins in the door contact? count two sticking out on springs as you go down, two static in, then a 5th contact at the bottom like the two at the top...

How did i get it working again?

Good question and i can only assume that when i had the switch apart and moved the sliding bit back and forth it freed it up or cleaned the contacts or i got lucky, sometimes these things work in mysterious ways, like i am not sure if this problem caused the battery to go flat ?
perhaps i need a new Battery anyway i think itsstill the original Panasonic Japanese one so its done well 10 Years?

Mick

The black switch mechanism may have just not quite sat in neutral.. Bit of fluff, grit stopping it & keeping the fader in the up slightly? Those winder motors are a lot tougher than you think!!
That's how i found my battery was duff.. Putting in a new alarm system & setting up a window closure system on arming/locking, my old battery couldn't handle the experimental testing any more! Had you been working on the switch with the primary ignition on perchance? Glad you got it sorted.

[g8dhe]

I still cant understand how the fuse did not blow? but i will fit a lower rating so when it does i will know where to look.

No don't !! The fuse didn't blow because there was no electrical fault Fuses aren't there to protect devices (motors in this case)- they are there to protect the WIRING. If you put a small enough fuse in to protect one motor, then it will blow when you operate both windows together ! Most (electronic) devices these days will blow a lot faster than a standard fuse - hence why transistors are nicknamed 3-legged fuses

[jaylee]

The black switch mechanism may have just not quite sat in neutral.. Bit of fluff, grit stopping it & keeping the fader in the up slightly? Those winder motors are a lot tougher than you think!!
That's how i found my battery was duff.. Putting in a new alarm system & setting up a window closure system on arming/locking, my old battery couldn't handle the experimental testing any more! Had you been working on the switch with the primary ignition on perchance? Glad you got it sorted.

Actually, disregard the red bit... I would have thought the window would have gone down when pressed, then gone back up when stopped?? Which in your case wasn't the symptom..