Cooling system diagram

[The Great Pretender]

Hi Widdowson.
1. Depends on what 'efficiency' relates to. Power, emmisions or keeping your tootsies cosy. Maximum power will be produced at 70 to 75c and drop of the higher the temp.

2. See above.

3. Yes it does but dosn't happen in a sealed system. it will happen if a numpty pours cold water into an over heated unpressurised system.

[widdowson2008]

Hi Widdowson.
1. Depends on what 'efficiency' relates to. Power, emmisions or keeping your tootsies cosy. Maximum power will be produced at 70 to 75c and drop of the higher the temp.

2. See above.

3. Yes it does but dosn't happen in a sealed system. it will happen if a numpty pours cold water into an over heated unpressurised system.

Thanks Mel

I'm taking this far too seriously - looking too deep into a black hole. Scrub round the my last post - what a load of crap

However, just a matter of interest, do you know anything about the Main rad fan question? Just out of interest you understand

[The Great Pretender]

If you think i'm going out to count blades.................................
As you said, your looking to deep. Remember the fans also have to control the air con. Focus on the basics there are enough of them...........

[missfixit70]

Hi Widdowson.
1. Depends on what 'efficiency' relates to. Power, emmisions or keeping your tootsies cosy. Maximum power will be produced at 70 to 75c and drop of the higher the temp.

2. See above.

3. Yes it does but dosn't happen in a sealed system. it will happen if a numpty pours cold water into an over heated unpressurised system.

Reading from the coolant at the outlet Mel? (long time since I had to know these sort of numbers )

If you think i'm going out to count blades.................................
As you said, your looking to deep. Remember the fans also have to control the air con. Focus on the basics there are enough of them...........

I think you're right there TBH, get the basic coolant flow thing worked out first, I reckon the fan switching & control question is possibly just one step too far at the moment

[widdowson2008]

Hi Widdowson.
1. Depends on what 'efficiency' relates to. Power, emmisions or keeping your tootsies cosy. Maximum power will be produced at 70 to 75c and drop of the higher the temp.

2. See above.

3. Yes it does but dosn't happen in a sealed system. it will happen if a numpty pours cold water into an over heated unpressurised system.

Reading from the coolant at the outlet Mel? (long time since I had to know these sort of numbers )

If you think i'm going out to count blades.................................
As you said, your looking to deep. Remember the fans also have to control the air con. Focus on the basics there are enough of them...........

I think you're right there TBH, get the basic coolant flow thing worked out first, I reckon the fan switching & control question is possibly just one step too far at the moment

Thanks to the pair of you. for input. Leave the fans for another day. Cheers
I do need bringing into line from time to time

and Mel - I'm going to count the blades cos ................well I just am

[Doone]

Steve you have a pm.

[widdowson2008]

Steve you have a pm.

Thank you.
Replied by pm

[Grahame at work]

The radiator fans are an integral part of the control of the cooling system and can not be left out.

I haven’t checked but Aethelric had to change his fan and indeed confirmed at the time that the two are different, one has more blades – I don’t know why.
Both fans are run together fed from the same relays.
The fans can run at 2 different speeds controlled by the ECU – normal speed for the air/con and usual forced air through the radiator when forward motion is insufficient – and high speed when the coolant reaches an even higher temperature.

These facts are taken from the electrical schematics and the workshop manual.

The details of the fan operation will be included in my own theory of operation when I have finished it – hopefully tonight.

I was pulled off this project last night to sort my daughter’s style formatting in her Word collage document – took hours

I did manage to complete the schematic but couldn’t convert to jpeg at home so I’ve done that at work now but can’t access Photo Bucket at work – so I’ll post that tonight from home.

By the way Steve I have converted the other Visio drawing to Autocad now and I am forwarding it and an Autocad copy of my new schematic to you.

Regards Grahame

[widdowson2008]

The radiator fans are an integral part of the control of the cooling system and can not be left out.

I haven’t checked but Aethelric had to change his fan and indeed confirmed at the time that the two are different, one has more blades – I don’t know why.
Both fans are run together fed from the same relays.
The fans can run at 2 different speeds controlled by the ECU – normal speed for the air/con and usual forced air through the radiator when forward motion is insufficient – and high speed when the coolant reaches an even higher temperature.

These facts are taken from the electrical schematics and the workshop manual.

The details of the fan operation will be included in my own theory of operation when I have finished it – hopefully tonight.

I was pulled off this project last night to sort my daughter’s style formatting in her Word collage document – took hours

I did manage to complete the schematic but couldn’t convert to jpeg at home so I’ve done that at work now but can’t access Photo Bucket at work – so I’ll post that tonight from home.

By the way Steve I have converted the other Visio drawing to Autocad now and I am forwarding it and an Autocad copy of my new schematic to you.

Regards Grahame

Brilliant Grahame - At the stroke of a pen, (keyboard) you have just saved me hours of work. Will the drawing come through as a 3D model for me to pick up?
You have got my email address ....?
I'm working on the schematic at the moment, trying to get it absolutely correct. I have received input from the think tank which means a mod to my original submission.
This will be completed today, so I need your drawing or I'll have sod all to do in the early hours of tommorow. That has got to be the starting point for me - a correct schematic flow diagram.


Re Blades/speed thing - I thought that may be the case (thanks A1 source of information - spot on yet again )- just wanted it confirming.
Different No. of blades = different 'blow' thingy (whats the name for that?) = attempt to cool different areas of the rad at different rates? No idea - leaving that for someone else to sort out but would like to be kept in the loop out of interest.
This is all getting quite exciting

I know the fans are an integral part of the cooling system, but I think they warrant looking at in their own right (a subsection of the system if you like) and then the whole thing bolted together as one informative piece of ....
By keeping it separate, we can keep things ON TRACK more easily and avoid discussions within discussions, and the subsequent arguements that inevitably follow. If that makes sense.

[Grahame at work]

3D

B**** ***l Steve - I know your keen but give me a break - 3D I can do but these were both done in Visio as simple diagrams

If you want 3D please wait a month or 2

Regards Grahame

[Doone]

I was pulled off this project last night to sort my daughter’s style formatting in her Word collage document – took hours

Good man and she'll love you even more for that!

I just asked Allan for a quick reply about the fans blades as he has one in bits at the moment. It's just come in from Japan and is original spec, nobody has changed the fans for non-genuine ones. There's a 5 blade fan that's sits at the drivers side of the radiator and a 7 blade fan on the passenger side of it.
He's asked if you need a photo or can you see them on the schematics?

Edit: He's looked at several more Bongos and Fredas, different years and models. Some fans are as per the various schematics for the various models.
BUT others have 2 of the same fans fitted, where different ones are shown on the schematics... some don't match the schematics for the model.

[haydn callow]

Now why would they use odd fans ???? gotta be a reason....assuming the 7 blade fan pushes more air/cooling !! and the hottest coolant comes in to the Radiator top drivers side

[widdowson2008]

3D

B**** ***l Steve - I know your keen but give me a break - 3D I can do but these were both done in Visio as simple diagrams

If you want 3D please wait a month or 2

Regards Grahame

Not familiar with visio, just AutoCAD, but no problems - I intended to prepare 3D stuff as a matter of course.
Got your drawings and they opened with no problems at all.
Mind you, to be absolutely frank, I expected nothing less than perfection from a guy of your caliber, and I was right

[widdowson2008]

I was pulled off this project last night to sort my daughter’s style formatting in her Word collage document – took hours

Good man and she'll love you even more for that!

I just asked Allan for a quick reply about the fans blades as he has one in bits at the moment. It's just come in from Japan and is original spec, nobody has changed the fans for non-genuine ones. There's a 5 blade fan that's sits at the drivers side of the radiator and a 7 blade fan on the passenger side of it.

He's asked if you need a photo or can you see them on the schematics?

So, the fans ARE bloody different as I suggested.
This calls for a completely new thread TOPIC - FANS.
2 reasons for saying this,
1 - They are complex enough to be considered in their own right
2 - I don't want this thread hi-jacking - not when we are this close to an answer - If it gets hi-jacked, all the info that has come up will get lost and that would be a shame.

If another thread started between folk who knew about the fans, then when complete, it could be married to this one and a better total understanding of the complete system reached. All that and the handbags havn't been drawn.

Come on you fannists, (nearly typed something else then) start a new topic and call it 'FANS - HOW DO THEY WORK'

[Doone]

So, the fans ARE bloody different as I suggested.

I think you have a secret longing to train as a mechanic, so you'd know all this already. You'd better put 'overalls' on your Xmas list.

So, the fans ARE bloody different as I suggested.
This calls for a completely new thread TOPIC - FANS.
2 reasons for saying this,
1 - They are complex enough to be considered in their own right
2 - I don't want this thread hi-jacking - not when we are this close to an answer - If it gets hi-jacked, all the info that has come up will get lost and that would be a shame.

If another thread started between folk who knew about the fans, then when complete, it could be married to this one and a better total understanding of the complete system reached. All that and the handbags havn't been drawn.

Come on you fannists, (nearly typed something else then) start a new topic and call it 'FANS - HOW DO THEY WORK'

If anyone wants this done, let an administrator know and we can attempt to split the topic up, so that the info about the fans is carried across to the new topic.