Chargecooler

rustyp · Post by **rustyp** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:18 pm

Chargecooler - anyone tried one instead of the intercooler?

francophile1947 · Post by **francophile1947** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:43 pm

Why? See this extract
WHAT'S SO BAD ABOUT THEM?
Charge-coolers are less efficient and more costly than inter-coolers, because the heat has to travel over more transfer surfaces. An inter-cooler transfer is: ambient air/metal/intake air, where a charge-cooler is: ambient air/metal/water/metal/intake air. It is a thermodynamics law, which states that heat (energy) can flow only when there is a temperature difference.

from here http://www.perfectpower.com/technical_info/charge1.asp

rustyp · Post by **rustyp** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:13 pm

The Bongo Diesel runs quite a small turbo, from the turbo there is quite a large length of pipe to the intercooler (I was shocked how long when I saw it the other day) then another long run of pipe back to the inlet manifold. With an intercooler you could have a short run of pipe to an intercooler in front of the cam cover with another short run of pipe to the inlet manifold.

All that pipework equals quite a large volume for the turbo to fill before any boost gets to the inlet manifold. A much shorter run and lower volume would equal better efficiency. A chargecooler and intercooler have about the same volume I would suppose.

The radiator for the chargecooler would be where the present intercooler is.

My brother has 2 Starlet Glanzas, one standard with a small top-mount intercooler with very short tube runs, the other with a massive front mounted intercooler with large lengths of tubing. The added cooling of the larger intercooler definitely equates to more power but "turbo lag" is also very very noticable (the time taken for the boost to build) and the standard one is far more responsive and nicer to drive in the everyday world.

With the standard set-up on the Bongo I feel a lot of energy is being wasted. Chargecoolers are "radiators" as we know them in reverse, water plumbing is a hastle but it may yield results!

dandywarhol · Post by **dandywarhol** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:12 pm

I'd be interested to see how you got on with fitting a chargecooled system but bear in mind that lag is much less of an issue with diesel engines. I'd also be looking at anything to reduce the amount of coolant pipework on a Bongo - rather than have more to go wrong

missfixit70 · Post by **missfixit70** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:15 pm

Personally I wouldn't want to add more pipework to the coolant system, but it'd be interesting to see where you go with it & if it actually makes any difference. Ensuring the intercooler is clear certainly seemed to make a difference on mine.

Daniel · Post by **Daniel** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:34 pm

Fitting a charge cooler to a bongo is pointless. It may be a fun project but if you want to do better fit a huge intercooler in front of the radiator right in the grill. You can get them the same size as radiators, HUGE!

Like what has already been said chargecoolers are sometimes used to reduce the pipe length between the turbo, intercooler and the inlet in cars that have engines deep in the body. Longer rubber pipes swelling under pressure as well as more potential to louse gas. If you look under the bonnet of supped up cars the pipes are normally formed stainless steel, with very small silicone connectors.

Another benefit of a charge cooler is that even without airflow it will cool for a short period until the water heats up. For drag racing and short distance sprints they put dry ice into the charge cooler header tank to super cool the water and hence inlet charge. Running cooler charge means they can run more fuel keeping the air/fuel ratio constant.

rustyp · Post by **rustyp** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:59 pm

missfixit70 wrote:Personally I wouldn't want to add more pipework to the coolant system

Ensuring the intercooler is clear certainly seemed to make a difference on mine.

It wouldn't be connected to the coolant system but have it's own mini coolant system with a small motorbike rad where the intercooler is presently a run of hose and a small electric pump

Daniel wrote:Fitting a charge cooler to a bongo is pointless. It may be a fun project but if you want to do better fit a huge intercooler in front of the radiator right in the grill. You can get them the same size as radiators, HUGE!

Like what has already been said chargecoolers are sometimes used to reduce the pipe length between the turbo, intercooler and the inlet in cars that have engines deep in the body. Longer rubber pipes swelling under pressure as well as more potential to louse gas. If you look under the bonnet of supped up cars the pipes are normally formed stainless steel, with very small silicone connectors.

Another benefit of a charge cooler is that even without airflow it will cool for a short period until the water heats up. For drag racing and short distance sprints they put dry ice into the charge cooler header tank to super cool the water and hence inlet charge. Running cooler charge means they can run more fuel keeping the air/fuel ratio constant.

The engine is deep in the body!!

Having a large intercooler as per my brother's scenario adds lots of lag as the volume of the pipework is huge, pipes swelling isn't really the issue. If there is as good as or better than standard cooling with far less induction pipework then bonus.

Get a short piece of hose and a kiddies fan and blow down the hose to spin the fan - it spins easily. A longer length of hose means you have to blow harder to have the same effect. It takes effort to overcome the volume of the pipe.

I loikes a good discussion

Russ

cheffy34 · Post by **cheffy34** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:25 pm

Yip i agree this is an interesting thread

will be interesting to know even if i haven't gota turbo at the mo

you never know what around the corner i'd like to eak more out of my v6 but don't reckon it worth the hassle

scanner · Post by **scanner** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:45 pm

rustyp wrote: Having a large intercooler as per my brother's scenario adds lots of lag as the volume of the pipework is huge, pipes swelling isn't really the issue. If there is as good as or better than standard cooling with far less induction pipework then bonus.

Get a short piece of hose and a kiddies fan and blow down the hose to spin the fan - it spins easily. A longer length of hose means you have to blow harder to have the same effect. It takes effort to overcome the volume of the pipe.

But as Dandy says - although pipe volume may be an important factor on a petrol turbo (where the airflow is stopping and starting all the time 'cos of that stupid butterfly thingy opening and closing all the time) it isn't any where near as important on a diesel where, once the system is up to pressure, lag is not a huge issue.

I can't say I've noticed turbo lag to be any problem on my Bongo.

Now my daughter's Escort Cosworth is another thing................and as for that stupid dump valve gizmo

Am I glad turbo diesels don't need them...................

cheffy34 · Post by **cheffy34** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:59 pm

scanner wrote:
rustyp wrote: Having a large intercooler as per my brother's scenario adds lots of lag as the volume of the pipework is huge, pipes swelling isn't really the issue. If there is as good as or better than standard cooling with far less induction pipework then bonus.

Get a short piece of hose and a kiddies fan and blow down the hose to spin the fan - it spins easily. A longer length of hose means you have to blow harder to have the same effect. It takes effort to overcome the volume of the pipe.
But as Dandy says - although pipe volume may be an important factor on a petrol turbo (where the airflow is stopping and starting all the time 'cos of that stupid butterfly thingy opening and closing all the time) it isn't any where near as important on a diesel where, once the system is up to pressure, lag is not a huge issue.

I can't say I've noticed turbo lag to be any problem on my Bongo.

Now my daughter's Escort Cosworth is another thing................and as for that stupid dump valve gizmo
Am I glad turbo diesels don't need them...................

I like it

sounds cool

i would insult the cossie tho but for fear of being battered by BDC and yourself i will refrain

scanner · Post by **scanner** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:22 pm

cheffy34 wrote: I like it sounds cool i would insult the cossie tho but for fear of being battered by BDC and yourself i will refrain

Be my guest.... it wouldn't be my choice - neither would her 1971 Beetle either.............

The only sensible car she owns is a Punto JTD.

rustyp · Post by **rustyp** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:29 pm

What cars/vans have chargecoolers as standard? Racking my brain at the minute - some Celicas I believe and possibly Saabs?

Cheers Russ

cheffy34 · Post by **cheffy34** » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:35 pm

rustyp wrote:What cars/vans have chargecoolers as standard? Racking my brain at the minute - some Celicas I believe and possibly Saabs?

Cheers Russ

Funnily enough i have a friend doin a celica at mo I will ask he when i can, he's gotta a garage full of celica parts some very sort after apparently

I'm sure you are right that some of the celicas were chargecooled were the vw g40's and 60's not chargecooled

or was it an aftermarket upgrade

The Great Pretender · Post by **The Great Pretender** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:45 am

Sounds like a fun pointless tweek on a Bongo. Some intercoolers are chocolate firegards and the cooling they give is negated by the reduction in boost. More important is the lowest pressure drop for the highest reduction in temperature.
How about using a methanol spray to enhance power and reduce charge temp?

How about fitting Nitrous Oxide Cheffy?

missfixit70 · Post by **missfixit70** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:47 am

See the vids on the Santa pod threads in Fancy meeting up for examples

Bongo doing a 6 second quarter mile soon then?

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