Veg Oil/Diesel Mix in the Cold

ronhud · Post by **ronhud** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:48 am

Following on from my reply re freezer testing:-

Left a litre bottle of rapeseed overnight in the freezer general area - temp drops to -15c. Contents were severely gelled. When testing viscosity removed a short while after reaching -10c and still flowable. This of course is pure veg oil - if I can manage to get some diesel into a can next time I fill up I'll do some more simple testing at different dilutions.

Ron

bigdaddycain · Post by **bigdaddycain** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:54 am

I checked the couple of litres i had in my tub this morning,it was completely fluid like, but on removing the lid,i did get a distinct whiff of diesel too....

There may have been a cup full of diesel in the bottom of the tub when i tipped in the excess veg oil i suppose...

pistonbroke · Post by **pistonbroke** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:17 pm

My view on diesels has already been aired (see above) but I have rarely heard a sweeter sound than Freda springing into life this morning. As Dandy rightly predicted, the filter was full of jelly. So a Christmas cracker (whether it's one with a silly joke, or one as is Franco's avatar) will be winging it's way north of the border in due course.

It's interesting that those who have tested this sort of thing still have liquid oil at -5 or so. Maybe it needs to be comletely fluid to work properly.

Anyhoo, the moral of the story seems to be to keep it 100% in winter and use the veggie stuff when things warm up a bit. I will miss the smell of chips.

Thanks everyone for all your advice, support and input.

Socket Set Sue · Post by **Socket Set Sue** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:57 pm

I must sympathise with you all having a problem starting / running your Bongos on vegetable oils. Did you not expect any problems during the cold weather and if so is it worth the time and trouble?

I know that there are a lot of people out there who 'know it all' about running on vegetable oil and encourage you all to do the same but forget to mention the problems you may encounter.

I would try and find out as much as I can about the subject not only from Bongo oil burners but any other sources as well to try and build up in my own mind if it is for me.

As a start I would encourage all you undecided oil burners to start here:-

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#problem

pistonbroke · Post by **pistonbroke** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:17 pm

I think I'd prefer your avatar too. John. If only I could remember what to do once I'd got hold of her.

To be honest, Sue, no I didn't expect problems. Naively perhaps, I thought that more modern engines with their computerised management systems and finer tuning might have difficulties, but that Freda's older, less sophisticated technology wouldn't be adversely affected. Obviously, I wouldn't have tried it if I thought I might do damage and other members have been using it for years. Older, wiser (and poorer) now. Never mind, it's only money.

Thanks, Mike. Getting her back for Christmas wasn't the issue. I'll only be lying comatose in front of The Great Escape anyway. Just like the year before and the year before that. We are booked to be away for New Year though and I'm glad that that's still on. The oil came from Tesco and Lidl, BTW.

Seasonal jollies to evryone.

dandywarhol · Post by **dandywarhol** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:52 pm

francophile1947 wrote:Good news pistonbroke.
BTW I bet he'd prefer a cracker like my avatar

Aye - she'd be an ideal cracker to pull

Glad you got it sorted PB...............I wad a further issue to contend with when I went to my lockup for oil this morning - the local mouse community had taken a like to Lidl's finest and knawed their way through the plastic lids of the empties AND the one I had been draining the excess dribblings into...................

Still........peace and goodwill to all mice...............

pistonbroke · Post by **pistonbroke** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:13 pm

So Dandy.........Do I deduce that you run on a mix? You are a good bit nearer the Arctic Circle than I am. What % do you use? What are your views on SSSue's comments above?

I confess to being a bit confused now, although I still have a leaning to continue with the mix whilst being mindful of the weather. Mike's post about the flashpoints of various oils was very interesting - I didn't realise there was such a big difference between diesel and veg oils and can now see how a problem can arise.

My tank was full (to the top of the filler pipe) but I have now siphoned out a 5-gallon jerry can full of mixture. burned another couple of gallons off with a 3000rpm motorway blast and refilled with neat diesel. Running very sweetly now. so I hope all is now well in Fredaworld.

mick · Post by **mick** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:31 pm

Still running mine on 50:50, and it is CostCo

It runs fine, and I still like the smell, and the extra change in my pocket

. Not as cold in Somerset though

dandywarhol · Post by **dandywarhol** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:53 am

I'm back to 10% at the moment and will be doing so til the Spring. It's not just about saving costs (especially on 10%) but it does help replace the lubricating properties that were lost when sulphur was removed from diesel and gives the pump and injectors an easier time.

dandywarhol · Post by **dandywarhol** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:08 am

Ralph wrote:Re petrol not convinced better you than me.

Peugeot recommend adding 10% UL petrol in their pre HDI diesels during winter Ralph - it's in the handbook.

David Edwards · Post by **David Edwards** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:27 am

Hi folks sorry I haven't been chipping in but been a bit under the weather again, oh hum. Yeah I do cut down in winter and check the filter regularly but so far been okay, absolutely brill all the advice given and so nice to find a simple solution in the end. I am about to re check my filter as I have noticed a bit of slowing recently when I should have been burning up boy racers. lol. Mery christmas all.

Socket Set Sue · Post by **Socket Set Sue** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:14 pm

Has any of the long term oil burners had the oppertunity to have a look at their pistons and report back on the state of the bores and piston rings etc.

I read where the rings are supposed to gunge up and stick in the piston grooves allowing unburnt oil etc to bypass the cyinder and drain into the sump and degrading the sump oil.

Any-one got first hand knowledge of whether this happens or not?

pistonbroke · Post by **pistonbroke** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:03 pm

I've no idea, Sue, whether rings,pistons or anything else get gummed up. I can only say that the engine runs (save for the last couple of days of course!) pretty sweetly with a mix in. I don't get smoke at all, unless under heavy acceleration after over-run. which suggests the rings are ok. Only been using a mix for a couple of months. so maybe not enough time for those sort of problems to develop. However, it is quieter overall and doesn't rattle as much on start-up. I've not noticed any drop-off in performance or increase in fuel consumption, so remain a convert even in light of my recent problem. Dandy says he runs on 10% in the winter and his comments on the lubricating properties of running on a mix are interesting. Despite my overdoing it a bit in the cold weather, I am happy to continue using a mix, varied to take account of outside temperatures.

I take it that you are a sceptic and don't run on anything except 100% diesel.......? You've obviously thought about it, though, with the research you've done.

BongoMTBer · Post by **BongoMTBer** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:36 pm

dandywarhol wrote:it does help replace the lubricating properties that were lost when sulphur was removed from diesel and gives the pump and injectors an easier time.

Whilst it may help with the lubricity of the fuel, do not underestimate the extra load put on the pump by a cold more viscous fuel. This is why twin tank systems start on diesel until the engine, filter heater and pump are up to temperature before switching to straight vegetable oil. They then purge the fuel system with diesel whilst the engine is hot, before shut down. Also, veg oil left in hot injectors after shutdown can leave a glaze, disrupting the atomising spray pattern of an injector.

Due to the extra load of more viscous veg oil, the Lucas pumps fitted to some Peugeot XUD diesels will break after time with anything stronger than a 25% mix of veg oil. It is only a matter of time with those, especially in the colder months. Bosch pumps seem to be bomb-proof however, and will run on straight veg oil in the summer no worries.

Basically another reason to thin your veg oil with more diesel in the winter IMHO.

Socket Set Sue · Post by **Socket Set Sue** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:34 pm

I am gong to stick to 100% diesesel fue, you know where you are with it. I would imagine the addition of 10% veg oil would make about 2p's difference to the running costs after changing fuel filters etc. and the fact that you may be building up long term trouble just isn't worth it.

On that miserable note may I add:-

Thanks to all the Bongo Forum users who have made me think, laugh, cry, and solved a few Bongo mysteries over 2007

A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.

Veg Oil/Diesel Mix in the Cold

Oil Burners and the Cold Weather

Oil on the rings

Veg Oil