Engine Replacement - Total Unbelievable DISASTER

[patmckenna]

Hi Rob
Thanks for the post. I have Trading Standards and the Credit Card Company standing in the wings as we speak.
Pat

[dandywarhol]

I think the 110 deg. rule is flawed.

Coolant boils at 100 deg C at sea level. The cooling system is pressurised and the blow off pressure on the cap is 1.1 bar/16 psi. Now, Grumpo (long time no hear ) would give a far more accurate answer but as a rule of thumb for every psi of pressure produced the coolant boiling point is raised 1.5 deg. C.
Therefore the cooling system (including the head and wax) could theoretically reach 124 deg.C before boiling - that's a helluva lot higher than 110 deg!!!

[grumpo]

Hi Dandy, still Bongoing but less computing, thanks for the thought.

While the above computation is adequate for approximations
it may be prudent in this particular instance to be slightly more
precise.

We are considering the differential pressure of the cap
which is the difference between the absolute water pressure
and the external barometric pressure. As the local barometric
variation is unknown we will have to use the mean sea level
pressure.

1 Bar is the mean sea level pressure which is 101.325 kPa.

The properties of steam are extremely complex and values
are obtained experimentally, the last time this was done
as far as I can remember was in 1968 by N.E.L. This extract
is taken from their tables.

At a water temperature of 122 degrees Celsius, the absolute
vapour pressure (boiling point) is 211.44 kPa.

Subtract the barometric pressure from above:

211.44 - 101.325 = 110.12 kPa, equivalent to 1.1012 Bar which
is close enough - IMO - for normal engineering tolerances.

I know I cheated by starting with the answer, but the pressure
values just happened to coincide with the temperature integer
value and required no extrapolation.

[clogger]

do not know if this is of any help but
i have a engine temperature sensor fitted directly to the cylinder head they are designed for the marine engine market
on mine normal temp readings can be anywhere between 85-105 c
but it has reached 110c on a few occasions ie it`s favourite place is coming back over the m62 motorway at saddleworth moor
with it being a higher altitude and coming up a dirty great hill i don`t know
but it does it everytime then it settles down
the bongo`s temp guage does`nt move from it`s 11 o clock position

so reaching 110c certainly ain`t doing any harm to the engine
and after the first few times stopped worrying about it

[patmckenna]

Hi Folks

Thanks to Dandywarhol, Grumpo & Clogger for their overnight contributions to this thread. As I understand it, Dandywarhol & Clogger are both saying that 110 degrees is not (in the context of the temperatures reached in the Bongo engine in normal operation) high enough to 'cook' an engine. Therefore, if the engine company stands by their declaration that their pods will melt out at 110 degrees, then this wax meltdown will occur long before a critically dangerous temperature for the Bongo engine has been reached.

Grumpo - are you broadly in agreement with this but are being more precise by stating that the critical temp is 122 degrees rather than Dandywarhol's 124 degrees?

Pat
- slightly confused by the physics - but getting ready for a very heavy day.

[grumpo]

The point of precision in this case is that you may be shot
down in flames by defence lawyers if you provide inaccurate
technical information if the outcome is eventually decided
in a court of law.

As far as CRITICAL is concerned, any engine can run at far
higher temperatures than 120 C, and many industrial engines
are designed to do exactly that, there is an increase in
combustion efficiency. The main problem with running
automotive engines at a higher temperature is the cost and
additional weight of components such as radiators and
flexible tubing necessary to withstand the higher pressures
involved to prevent saturation.

The critical point is when the engine temperature is no longer
being properly controlled by the coolant water and the engine
temperature may rise sufficiently to cause the engine to seize
or stress the cylinder head enough to cause permanent damage.
With a clean engine, which has been properly purged of air,
you would expect any excessive temperature rise due to external
component failure - or negligence on your part to maintain the
correct water levels - to produce enough steam to give you
sufficient warning to immediately stop the engine before any
long term damage is caused.

Clearly, in your case this has not happened and only a complete
investigation by an independent engineer may be the only course
available to establish the real cause of the failure.

All engine temperatures rise and fall proportionally to the
amount of instantaneous work they are doing. Temperature
gauges are generally slugged to provide an average
temperature indication simply to give the user confidence
and allow the cooling system to look after itself, which it
generally does.

Does this help or confuse ?.

[patmckenna]

Hi Folks

Quick update. I spoke with the engine company this morning. Based on the evidence of the wax melting in the sensor pods at 110 degrees, they refuse to repair the engine, claiming that the mechanic 'cooked' it during installation.

They have offered to repair the engine at my expense - and they intend to charge me for the piggy-back to their headquarters.

I have declined their kind invitation to repair the vehicle at my expense. Counter measures have begun. I will keep you informed.

Pat

[patmckenna]

Hi Grumpo

Thanks for the post.

I certainly agree that an independent engineer may well need to be involved.

I'm carefully reading through the rest of the post and will contact you if I need clarification.

Thanks

Pat

[motorwizard]

I am sorry to read that the problem continues. From reading the thread I dont see that the fault has been dagnosed. It may require the engine to be dismantled to determine the fault and go from there. For example the engine could overheat because of an installation fault which would damage pistons and bores or the water could have been blown out because of a head fault and overheating follows or there could be a faulty water pump. From my experience Trading Standards may not be interested unless there is a prospect of a criminal prosecution. This could be the case if it was described as a reconditioned engine but was only an engine that had been repaired. Even if Trading Standards prosecute and win it is unlikely that the court would award compensation to you, you would have to do a civil claim.
A few years ago I was contacted by a man who had a replacement engine fitted to his van. The engine started to blow out water and he took it back to the repairer who said the damage was caused by putting petrol in the tank and refused to repair the engine. I arranged for a garage to remove the head (at Owners expense). The head was cracked and I made a report to that effect. The garage would not accept responsibility so I explained to the owner how to do a small claim for the cost of the engine plus the engine dismantling and my time. For various reasons it was nearly two years before it came to court. I explained to the court that the head was cracked and in defence that garage said this was caused by petrol in the fuel but when asked how they tested the fuel for petrol they were stumped. The court then found for the owner the cost of the engine, the dismantling , my time and court appearance but the van had been in pieces for two years.
I would suggest if the impass continues and neither party is willing to budge or assist with diagnosis and repair that you find a local expert who is experienced in this type of dispute you may also need to find a garage who is willing to dismantle and repair. With the engine repaired you can then use the van whilst you take either or both parties to the small claims court. In the small claims court you will not get back solicitors fees but in complex matters you can claim for the cost of a technical report and some of the costs if the expert has to attend court. You have to explain your case, if you do not feel competent then a friend can do this for you. Courts ae unlikely to award money for loss of enjoyment.
Unfortunately all this costs money and grief. I would point out that the above is not a legal opinion but my experiences.

[rob and karen]

I bought a Rav4 from a garage two years ago it was MOT'd and taxed and all looked good , drove it around for 3 months then it was MOT time , when i took it i used the main dealer ,half way through i was called in and shown the underneath it had been involved in an accident which was logged and was supposed to be reapired but nothing had been done , front and rear geometry was out and parts were bent litteraly like bananas, i immediately contacted trading standards of whom gave advice , but said it was down to me to sort it really as they have no powers as such , so i contacted the garage and wanted my money back , he refused i quoted the sales of good act but still nothing , so i went to the police who first said it was a civil matter , but to my amazement the police recontacted me the following day and sent a couple of police who work on behalf of the ministry who checked the vehicle ,they spent 3 hours measuring and taking details , they told me to contact the garage and tell him they were involved and were investigating the damage and the unroadworthyness of the vehicle he had sold , after the garage owner sent a few threatning letters of which was sent to the police he agreed to repair the rav and re-mot it , i refused him to repair it and said an independent garage had to do it he finally agreed and it was sorted out but the car was parked up for two months while all this happened , so dont give up keep at it seek legal advice from CAB or get a free hour with a solicitor , find out if you can reverse the card payment and with that get the bongo sorted and continue on with the other garage and engine company , it pays to keep on i did
best of luck
rob

[patmckenna]

Hi Folks
Thanks to Motorwizard & Rob (and to Ian @ Bongo Towers who quietly beavers away).

From a tactical point of view I now need to go into a 'closed session' - by this I mean that I need to vigirously pursue the matter without publically revealing specific routes.

I don't normally become involved in tactical games but I am learning fast. For instance, the engine company sent a photo of the temp sensor pods to their friends in AVA Leisure and are now assured in their minds that the melted centre discs can only have been caused by overheating - which in turn 'can only have been caused by the mechanic's failure to bleed properly'.

I will of course be countering this level of proof but I am astonished to see the engine company resort to gathering 'evidence' from companies like AVA who have a good reputation with members of this forum and who, I presume, normally wish to remain impartial in disputes of this nature.

Thank you all for reading the posts and for your excellent advice and contributions. I will continue to keep you informed.

Pat

[Ian]

For the reasons outlined above, this thread is now locked. When Pat (or myself) are ready to report back, a new thread will be opened.