Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by g8dhe » Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:10 am

There is often discussion about using AGM batteries for leisure batteries, AGM batteries are a good choice for a lesiure battery IF charging is carried out using an appropriate controller. An AGM charger reduces the charging voltage once full charge has been reached, this is to ensure the minimum amount of heat and gassing is generated and hence electrolyte from being evaporated or lost. This is important as the amount of electrolyte in an AGM battery is a lot less compared to a flooded style battery.

However using a Split Charge Relay system with a standard Flooded style starter battery and an AGM battery for leisure use means that BOTH batteries will be charged in the same way at the same voltage from the alternator when travelling, not a good idea see here for a discussion from the Battery University https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... atteries/1

"Unlike the flooded, the sealed lead acid battery is designed with a low over-voltage potential to prohibit the battery from reaching its gas-generating potential during charge. Excess charging causes gassing, venting and subsequent water depletion and dry-out. Consequently, gel, and in part also AGM, cannot be charged to their full potential and the charge voltage limit must be set lower than that of a flooded. This also applies to the float charge on full charge. In respect to charging, the gel and AGM are no direct replacements for the flooded type. If no designated charger is available for AGM with lower voltage settings, disconnect the charger after 24 hours of charge. This prevents gassing due to a float voltage that is set too high. ( See BU-403: Charging Lead Acid )"
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by JF117 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:32 pm

g8dhe wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:10 am There is often discussion about using AGM batteries for leisure batteries, AGM batteries are a good choice for a lesiure battery IF charging is carried out using an appropriate controller. An AGM charger reduces the charging voltage once full charge has been reached, this is to ensure the minimum amount of heat and gassing is generated and hence electrolyte from being evaporated or lost. This is important as the amount of electrolyte in an AGM battery is a lot less compared to a flooded style battery.

However using a Split Charge Relay system with a standard Flooded style starter battery and an AGM battery for leisure use means that BOTH batteries will be charged in the same way at the same voltage from the alternator when travelling, not a good idea see here for a discussion from the Battery University https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/art ... atteries/1

"Unlike the flooded, the sealed lead acid battery is designed with a low over-voltage potential to prohibit the battery from reaching its gas-generating potential during charge. Excess charging causes gassing, venting and subsequent water depletion and dry-out. Consequently, gel, and in part also AGM, cannot be charged to their full potential and the charge voltage limit must be set lower than that of a flooded. This also applies to the float charge on full charge. In respect to charging, the gel and AGM are no direct replacements for the flooded type. If no designated charger is available for AGM with lower voltage settings, disconnect the charger after 24 hours of charge. This prevents gassing due to a float voltage that is set too high. ( See BU-403: Charging Lead Acid )"
That link didn't work - do you mind give it another go?

Appreciate the feedback, but what should I do now? Should I take it back and or swap it for a lead-based battery?

Or is there an alternative - what device do I need in order to charge it properly off the alternator?

When comparing the CTEK Multi MXS 10 Charger and the CTEK XS 0.8 12v 6 stage battery, am I right in saying they're essentially the same only one charges at a much quicker rate (given it's 10amps and not 0.8 )?

Just trying to work out what to do next; whether or not I should bring it back and swap it out, just buy an additional item to ensure it gets the appropriate charge or do nothing and just simply make sure the battery gets a good long charge prior to run-outs.
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by JF117 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 9:44 pm

Also, separately, when I was taking the LB out of the engine bay I connected up the Electric Hook Up to see if the EHU would give the LB some charge and I noticed that it definitely did.

When I tested the LB it sat at about 13.05-13.1 then when I turned the inverter on it gradually went down to about 12.5 and stayed that way, which as far as I know is good. I then turned on the EHU and the battery started immediately regaining ground from 12.5v to about 12.8v, which I think hopefully demonstrates that the EHU works.

The other test I run was, I took out the battery completely and turned on the EHU and the only thing it was powering was the fridge. None of the internal lights were switching on nor was the heater, and I wanted to ask is it normal?

Am I right in saying the battery is essential no matter what and that the EHU is simply providing a charge to the battery as its simultaneously being used?
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by g8dhe » Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:20 pm

Try this link for the Battery University https://batteryuniversity.com/article/b ... ttery-work
They sometimes re-work the site as new info is put up!
Charging an AGM from the alternator isn't really a sensible option, you can get DC to DC chargers, but your talking about £150-£250 which rather spoils the pricing of a system!


Yes the chargers on EHU can normally be adjusted but should be set for around 13.6 Volts which is the float charge level which means they can be left connected for a long time without doing any damage, on the otherhand they will take a long time to recharge a flat battery!
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by JF117 » Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:40 pm

JF117 wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 11:01 pm
JF117 wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:45 am
JF117 wrote: Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:01 pm

Agreed, and tbh that's what the Mech said too (just didn't want to hop all over my well-kept van getting it dirty!).

I'll try and report back with findings for the future reference of any other members!

Thanks for your help!
Mech took the battery out and charged it overnight, sustained beep noise from inverter went away.. :?

Needs further investigation to be completely certain because it begs the question, why hasn't it been charging whilst the engine running &/OR electric hook up being connected?
Not that anyone on this board is probably monitoring this post but just incase someone is Googling for solutions on this I thoought I'd relay my findings.

Essentially, bottom line is that the battery needs replaced but to expand on some of my technical findings:

The inverter, as per the specification, makes these noises off the back of the fact its not receiving a solid 11.4v volts. I confirmed this through buying the ctek 0.8 smart charger, taking the battery out and giving it a good charge then going through some different tests with a multimeter.

Tests being, engine off, engine on, switching inverter on, switching heater on & taking readings each time to see how the battery was being affected. I probably could have done this so much more simply by having a load tester or something - but I didn't so I just did these things step by step and took a reading each time.

Immediately after the charge things didn't look great for the battery right away because the reading was 12.4v which from what I've read isn't a great reading right away.

Then under load, and with the different tests, it was barely just sitting above 11.4 volts, which is what the minimum the inverter needs as well as the heater. When they're both on at the same time, which would be the general assumption if going anywhere off grid, it just wouldn't stand up to the task at all, so I knew right away the battery needed replaced. Given that my findings were quite conclusive on that, I didn't even bother testing with the EHU and went ahead and bought a new Yuasa battery [L26-AGM] which is an exact like for like in terms of fit, considered fairly high grade and I could put my hands on it right away (so might have over-paid for it in that respect - halfords).

I've got that on a charge atm anyway, just so I can assess the quality of the new battery and if it's not standing up, bring it back and swap it for a better one.

Thought I'd report back my findings anyhow, to anyone on this board who cared, and then for anyone elses benefit who might be experiencing the same problem.

I know some of the boardies on this might also be thinking that this is terribly obvious, but I learnt alot and the experience served me well because through the research and googling I did, it's considered very good practice to take out your leisure battery and keep it nice and charged ahead of whenever one wishes to set out on their adventures, again something that may be considered extremely obvious, but it wasn't for me and so I'm glad I'm better off for it!

Whilst it's probably always going to be specific camper to camper, for anybody who has the same inverter and might be confused about it, I learned that of the three settings:

I = bypasses the switch & turns the inverter on constantly
0 = off completely
II = diverts the inverter to the switch above my sink so that I don't need to duck down underneath the sink and reach into the cupboard to switch it to one

Sustained beeping noise = the inverter isn't getting a constant flow of 11.4 volts from the LB and as some of the posters here said, shouldn't even be down that low to begin with anyway.
New developments....

Fuse & Relay replacement was needed. Hoping that's the end of it.

I had the new LB fully charged up and ready for a trip and halfway through our trip ,whilst having the inverter switched on (which means the fridge was on) and as we were driving thus there should have been charge coming from the alternator, the whining noise came back on. It stood to reason that the battery exerted all its charge and was not receiving a charge off the alternator.

Bought a caravan fuse kit and just replaced all the fuses in and around the engine bay, like for like, where I specifically noticed the fuse from the live wire on the Starter Battery was a bit 'spent', which could have been my problem, not sure. I also bought the exact same Ignition Switch Combi Relay / Maypole Tec2, which the mechanic fitted wiring it like for like. [https://www.amazon.co.uk/UNIVERSAL-CHAR ... B07P1H93B3]

Took it out for a spin there this weekend, should really have checked all the multi meter stats before, during and after but after the trip, which saw the LB sustain some decent heater usage, the reading on the LB was >12.9v.

One would hope and imagine that the problem has ultimately been solved?

However, whilst on the subject, I wanted to learn more about any one else's recommendations for the best way to split the charge. When I was doing my research on Split Charge Relays etc and how they work - there was some literature on other 'smarter' systems and essentially I want to try and future proof my system because, if its broke down once there's a chance it might happen again and I obviously don't want that.

I have a funny feeling that what's led to this has been the fact I used EHU. Reason being is because the previous owners specifically told me they had never used EHU and only ever wildcamped with no problems. However, first time I used the van, I used it with EHU, until the initial battery (which I replaced) eventually depleted and since I didn't know any better, it remained in a deep state of discharge until I worked out there was a problem (hence this entire thread).

Does anybody know if an EHU is capable of such trickery?
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by g8dhe » Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:18 pm

There really isn't any reason why using the EHU would have caused problems, the only thing that is possibly adjustable in a charger plugged into the EHU is its voltage and the range it can be adjusted over (normally an internal adjustment anyway) is limited and well within the range that wouldn't harm the battery.
There are some odd ways that people install split charge relays, usually they don't cause any problems until other faults develop that can make diagnoses difficult.
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by JF117 » Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:44 pm

g8dhe wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:18 pm There really isn't any reason why using the EHU would have caused problems, the only thing that is possibly adjustable in a charger plugged into the EHU is its voltage and the range it can be adjusted over (normally an internal adjustment anyway) is limited and well within the range that wouldn't harm the battery.
There are some odd ways that people install split charge relays, usually they don't cause any problems until other faults develop that can make diagnoses difficult.
Well, latest update on this, and especially for anyone else's future reference purposes.

Essentially I think I can draw a line under this one and chalk it up to either a bad fuse [between the live of the starter battery and the live of the leisure battery] and / or a burnt out ignition switch relay.

The reasons are because prior to doing this my brand new LB [which was completely charged] fully depleted during a weekend trip and the Waeco PP1002 inverter begun to make its whining noise to let me know the LB was <11.4v.

After making the fixes, I took it out last weekend, albeit, never put the LB under any serious use and whilst I did not take a reading [with my multimeter] before or during my trip, I did take a reading afterwards and it was coming in at 12.9v, which is OK. I left the LB in the engine bay during the week, drove the Bongo about 30km and today I took a reading where both the SB & LB are reading in at approx. 13.7v, which is pretty healthy voltage according to most metrics. Suffice to say that the battery has been taking a charge from the SB/Alternator.

Therefore, I can conclude that the problem has been solved. Since I am planning a trip away this weekend, where I know I'm going to be using the battery quite heavily for the eberspacher heater, I took it out anyway and have plugged it into the wall.

Would you say that's generally good practice anyway or is that overkill?
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by g8dhe » Thu Feb 24, 2022 2:06 pm

Be aware that when measuring the "battery" voltage if the voltage is above the resting voltage of 12.6 Volts then your actually measuring the voltage from the charging source not the battery itself, if you disconnect the charging source (be it alternator, EHU or solar panel) then the voltage will fall back towards 12.6 volts over about 20 minutes or so. Only when your measuring the actual battery voltage will you know the state of charge of the battery.
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by Hazzobongo » Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:08 pm

These agm batteries if you take a reading shortly after a drive or a charge always register high, the one I have in the bike has been at 15v after three hours riding and even on a trickle charge after 4-6 hours they go through the roof. I only installed the bike one last year after the motor factors I use had no lead acid ones in stock and gave it to me for the same price, bike is old school 02 without smart tech.
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by g8dhe » Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:28 pm

Do you mean Lithium batteries ? AGM batteries are lead acid and they cook even more rapidly if you exceed 14.4 volts as they have a lot less electrolyte in them. Some types of lithium batteries when being charged can reach 14.8 volts safely.
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by Hazzobongo » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:41 pm

No its definitely a sealed AGM motorcycle battery and the longer its on charge the higher it goes, I had it on a trickle charger it went to 17v, dropped to 13.9 when unplugged for half an hour and not even warm to the touch, I've not been riding since december and it was sat at 12.3 which doesn't fire the bike so I put it on charge, it doesn't seem to have had any ill effects. The charge from the bikes stator is 14.7
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by g8dhe » Sun Feb 27, 2022 10:34 pm

You might want to read from the link below;
As with all gelled and sealed units, AGM batteries are sensitive to overcharging. A charge to 2.40V/cell (and higher) is fine; however, the float charge should be reduced to between 2.25 and 2.30V/cell (summer temperatures may require lower voltages). Automotive charging systems for flooded lead acid often have a fixed float voltage setting of 14.40V (2.40V/cell); a direct replacement with a sealed unit could overcharge the battery on a long drive.
https://batteryuniversity.com/article/b ... ss-mat-agm
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by Hazzobongo » Tue Mar 01, 2022 7:30 pm

Yeah well its been on the bike since last summer with no issues, bikes use a regulator/rectifier which dumps the current when the batteries charged maybe this is why I'm having no issues with it. The reg/rec I use I had to order from the states after my original failed, its possible this one being a 2018 model its 'smart'. I charge the battery on the bike in situ when its low but been leaving it on for four hours, reading that article 2 hours is probably more than ample do you think?

I tend to ride for hours at a time when I get out so long drives aren't affecting it much either.
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by JF117 » Sun Jul 03, 2022 8:07 pm

Haven't a problem since!

In fact I took the old battery out and charged it off the wall a few times and TBH, I think it's okay now. It was this little unit which was messing me up:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07 ... _667574411

Image

The last one was fried and when this was replaced, all was well.
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Re: Waeco PerfectPower PP1002 Inverter

Post by g8dhe » Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:26 pm

Yes those are intended for caravans, where by your charging the battery in the caravan and possibly running the fridge whilst driving. They rely on the length of wiring from front of the car to the caravan to limit the charging current and then handle the fact that when on-site the car is disconnected and the caravan uses its own battery or its own EHU connection. Whilst in principle this is similar to a campervan its NOT identical, hence the relay is not adequately rated for the charging current and often burns out after a while depending on how much the LB is used etc! There are much better options designed for campervans where the relay is much more adequately rated and doesn't have the need to handle the back of the van being disconnected from the the front seats and engine!
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