Bongo Fury

Hey guys as you all know i'm having an issue with my van at mo as in being a ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm shall we say non strarter
I am hankering towards coil/igniter direction now after changing a few things, after Andy's post on my last topic i am in two minds now wether i do have a good strong spark albeit i do have a spark at the plugs.

My question is am i right in believing that if the ignitor was at fault then there would be no spark from the coil What exactly does an igniter do

My other question is why will it run albeit terribly if i turn the dizzy forwards and boy does it smell rich, turn it back to where it should be it dies is this all to do with bad spark or am i barking up the wrong tree,


HELP PLEASE GUYS



Dar

cheffy34 wrote:Hey guys as you all know i'm having an issue with my van at mo as in being a ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm shall we say non strarter
I am hankering towards coil/igniter direction now after changing a few things, after Andy's post on my last topic i am in two minds now wether i do have a good strong spark albeit i do have a spark at the plugs.

My question is am i right in believing that if the ignitor was at fault then there would be no spark from the coil What exactly does an igniter do

My other question is why will it run albeit terribly if i turn the dizzy forwards and boy does it smell rich, turn it back to where it should be it dies is this all to do with bad spark or am i barking up the wrong tree,


HELP PLEASE GUYS



Dar

Let's go back to basics.......the ignition coil is an induction coil in an ignition system which transforms the battery's 12 v to the thousands of volts needed to spark the spark plugs. It then connects to the Dizzy.....
In older points systems when the points close, it allows a current from the battery to build up in the primary winding of the ignition coil. Once the current has built up to its full level, the contact breaker opens. More modern electronic ignition systems operate on the same principle, but some rely on charging the capacitor to around 400 volts rather than charging the coil.
Even newer vehicle use on the plugs coil packs where some are even "wasted spark" but we wont go there.
So on answer to your "igniter" and having not seen a Bongo V6 ignition system then this I would assume to be the same function as points used to do on a cleaner and more reliable scale. 80/90's petrol cars tend to have a small ignition pack which connects into the dizzy to replace the points (manufacturer designed etc).
Non starting yet you have a spark..... any tracking across from your ignition parts?....like shorting out?....worth a check or any small cracks in the insulation materials
Moving the dizzy is changing the timing/fuel mixture either advancing or retarding (engine dependent)......hence rich mixes.... to weaker mixes
What I would do is as I usually do with older vehicles, set all your ign timing to static....get it running then set it dynamic with a light .......it's difficult to pin stuff down without the engine to hand.....

The Ignitor is just a transistor that does the switching, as Mike explains above, see the diagram below, centre bottom it is labelled B4-05;

It simply connects the end of the Ignition coil (B4-04) to ground, and then breaks the connection under control of the ECU.

Oh and as I just put this picture up for another reason I might as well post it here as well;

The three components are in the lower left corner, the Ignition coil itself with the lead coming out of it up to the distributer, below it is the Igniter you can see the connector for it and slightly to the left is the interference suppression capacitor (nothing to do with a Capacitive Discharge Ignition system which the Bongo doesn't have).

mikexgough wrote:

cheffy34 wrote:Hey guys as you all know i'm having an issue with my van at mo as in being a ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm shall we say non strarter
I am hankering towards coil/igniter direction now after changing a few things, after Andy's post on my last topic i am in two minds now wether i do have a good strong spark albeit i do have a spark at the plugs.

My question is am i right in believing that if the ignitor was at fault then there would be no spark from the coil What exactly does an igniter do

My other question is why will it run albeit terribly if i turn the dizzy forwards and boy does it smell rich, turn it back to where it should be it dies is this all to do with bad spark or am i barking up the wrong tree,


HELP PLEASE GUYS



Dar

Let's go back to basics.......the ignition coil is an induction coil in an ignition system which transforms the battery's 12 v to the thousands of volts needed to spark the spark plugs. It then connects to the Dizzy.....
In older points systems when the points close, it allows a current from the battery to build up in the primary winding of the ignition coil. Once the current has built up to its full level, the contact breaker opens. More modern electronic ignition systems operate on the same principle, but some rely on charging the capacitor to around 400 volts rather than charging the coil.
Even newer vehicle use on the plugs coil packs where some are even "wasted spark" but we wont go there.
So on answer to your "igniter" and having not seen a Bongo V6 ignition system then this I would assume to be the same function as points used to do on a cleaner and more reliable scale. 80/90's petrol cars tend to have a small ignition pack which connects into the dizzy to replace the points (manufacturer designed etc).
Non starting yet you have a spark..... any tracking across from your ignition parts?....like shorting out?....worth a check or any small cracks in the insulation materials
Moving the dizzy is changing the timing/fuel mixture either advancing or retarding (engine dependent)......hence rich mixes.... to weaker mixes
What I would do is as I usually do with older vehicles, set all your ign timing to static....get it running then set it dynamic with a light .......it's difficult to pin stuff down without the engine to hand.....

You see this is what i don't understand the ignition timing is in from when i re did it after doing my cambelt cos all my timing was to cock cause it jumped a tooth on the exhaust and 2 on the inlet on the driver side so when i did the cambelt etc i retimed the lot cams, crank and i strobed the ignition in and marked it with tipex for future refs, the confusing thing is it ran fine for months untill it died, and now it will only run very badly if i change the ignition if i put it back to where my ignition timeing mark is nothing wants to fire but wont run , i cant see how the ignition timing can be out when it was purring like a cat (and it was marked spot on for future), what i'm asking is if the spark is crap will changing the ignition timing make it run albeit badly, I need to test my coil but i'm not overly confident with a multi meter a spanner and i'm fine leccy and i'm not, and i cant seem to find the tolerences in the manual for the coil and ignitor either. It obviuosly has fuel cos it will run, it cant be cam or crank sensor cos it will run which only really leaves a leccy issue or am i being a dumb ass

please answer that nicely and all input is greatly recieved


Dar

g8dhe wrote:The Ignitor is just a transistor that does the switching, as Mike explains above, see the diagram below, centre bottom it is labelled B4-05;

It simply connects the end of the Ignition coil (B4-04) to ground, and then breaks the connection under control of the ECU.

schematics are pointless in front of me to be honest I really don't understand them


Dar

cheffy34 wrote:

mikexgough wrote:

cheffy34 wrote:Hey guys as you all know i'm having an issue with my van at mo as in being a ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm shall we say non strarter
I am hankering towards coil/igniter direction now after changing a few things, after Andy's post on my last topic i am in two minds now wether i do have a good strong spark albeit i do have a spark at the plugs.

My question is am i right in believing that if the ignitor was at fault then there would be no spark from the coil What exactly does an igniter do

My other question is why will it run albeit terribly if i turn the dizzy forwards and boy does it smell rich, turn it back to where it should be it dies is this all to do with bad spark or am i barking up the wrong tree,

If that supressor is on the LT side of the coil it could kill the sparks if it has a fault. retarding the ignition reduces the compression when the spark occurs so reduces the voltage needed to jump the gap. This suggests something is breaking down under load.

Condensor failure as it used to be called was quite a common cause of trouble with C/B ignitions back in the day. I have only experienced it once myself, on a BSA C15 but it might be worth eliminating.

HELP PLEASE GUYS



Dar

Let's go back to basics.......the ignition coil is an induction coil in an ignition system which transforms the battery's 12 v to the thousands of volts needed to spark the spark plugs. It then connects to the Dizzy.....
In older points systems when the points close, it allows a current from the battery to build up in the primary winding of the ignition coil. Once the current has built up to its full level, the contact breaker opens. More modern electronic ignition systems operate on the same principle, but some rely on charging the capacitor to around 400 volts rather than charging the coil.
Even newer vehicle use on the plugs coil packs where some are even "wasted spark" but we wont go there.
So on answer to your "igniter" and having not seen a Bongo V6 ignition system then this I would assume to be the same function as points used to do on a cleaner and more reliable scale. 80/90's petrol cars tend to have a small ignition pack which connects into the dizzy to replace the points (manufacturer designed etc).
Non starting yet you have a spark..... any tracking across from your ignition parts?....like shorting out?....worth a check or any small cracks in the insulation materials
Moving the dizzy is changing the timing/fuel mixture either advancing or retarding (engine dependent)......hence rich mixes.... to weaker mixes
What I would do is as I usually do with older vehicles, set all your ign timing to static....get it running then set it dynamic with a light .......it's difficult to pin stuff down without the engine to hand.....

You see this is what i don't understand the ignition timing is in from when i re did it after doing my cambelt cos all my timing was to cock cause it jumped a tooth on the exhaust and 2 on the inlet on the driver side so when i did the cambelt etc i retimed the lot cams, crank and i strobed the ignition in and marked it with tipex for future refs, the confusing thing is it ran fine for months untill it died, and now it will only run very badly if i change the ignition if i put it back to where my ignition timeing mark is nothing wants to fire but wont run , i cant see how the ignition timing can be out when it was purring like a cat (and it was marked spot on for future), what i'm asking is if the spark is crap will changing the ignition timing make it run albeit badly, I need to test my coil but i'm not overly confident with a multi meter a spanner and i'm fine leccy and i'm not, and i cant seem to find the tolerences in the manual for the coil and ignitor either. It obviuosly has fuel cos it will run, it cant be cam or crank sensor cos it will run which only really leaves a leccy issue or am i being a dumb ass

please answer that nicely and all input is greatly recieved


Dar

If that supressor is on the LT side of the coil it could kill the sparks if it has a fault.
Condensor failure as it used to be called was quite a common cause of trouble with C/B ignitions back in the day. I have only experienced it once myself, on a BSA C15 but it might be worth eliminating.

cheffy34 wrote: what i'm asking is if the spark is crap will changing the ignition timing make it run albeit badly, I need to test my coil but i'm not overly confident with a multi meter a spanner and i'm fine leccy and i'm not, and i cant seem to find the tolerences in the manual for the coil and ignitor either. It obviuosly has fuel cos it will run, it cant be cam or crank sensor cos it will run which only really leaves a leccy issue or am i being a dumb ass
please answer that nicely and all input is greatly recieved
Dar

If the ignition is firing at a point where the compression is lower then it will need less power in the spark, soit could well make a difference. Cam or crank sensor should throw a fault code.

Rhinoman wrote:

cheffy34 wrote: what i'm asking is if the spark is crap will changing the ignition timing make it run albeit badly, I need to test my coil but i'm not overly confident with a multi meter a spanner and i'm fine leccy and i'm not, and i cant seem to find the tolerences in the manual for the coil and ignitor either. It obviuosly has fuel cos it will run, it cant be cam or crank sensor cos it will run which only really leaves a leccy issue or am i being a dumb ass
please answer that nicely and all input is greatly recieved
Dar

If the ignition is firing at a point where the compression is lower then it will need less power in the spark, soit could well make a difference. Cam or crank sensor should throw a fault code.

Ha Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, laymens terms thanks just what i wanted to know



Dar