Bongo Fury

By our sample of one at least, MotorMax (http://www.motormax.eu) seems to work well, in its most important claim areas, namely faster engine warm up, and reduction or elimination of engine hot spots.

It does also reduce engine operating temperatures (motorway slog, or urban crawl) but, measured at least by our engine block front-mounted TM-2 sensor, less dramatically (typically 3C-5C reduction) than some of their cited case studies claim. However, as our TM-2 sensor is mounted at one of the coolest locations on the engine block, and measures surface not coolant temperature, that's not entirely surprising. The following observations would also seem to suggest more significant overall operating temperature reduction than our TM-2 shows.

Faster engine warm up now is indicated in two ways:

- my subjective observation of a significantly reduced time now taken for the TM-2 to reach its stable operating temperature.

- direct observation of petrol to LPG switchover temperature, as TM-2 indicated - now taking place at 40C-42C, relative to about 55C previously (and much smoother idling now, while the TM-2 indicated engine temperature rise continues).

From the second of those observations, I infer that coolant temperature (used to pre-heat the LPG vaporiser, up to a fixed coolant temperature at switchover) is rising faster than block temperature at the TM-2 sensor location, suggesting much-enhanced coolant heat transfer as claimed.

Reduction or elimination of engine hot spots seems to be clearly indicated by dramatic alteration now of engine block temperature changes (again measured at the frontal TM-2 sensor location), after switching off the engine. Previously, depending on driving pattern/duration just before stopping, and even at this time of year, an initial rapid rise of up 10C could be seen, before cooling then began. Again, as the TM-2 measures block surface temperature not coolant temperature, this did not show coolant "heat soak" but heat conduction through the block, away from engine hot spots . Now, however, there is zero TM-2 indicated block surface temperature gain after switching off, and in fact, rapid cooling begins almost immediately. This can only mean that the coolant is now much more efficiently transferring heat away from hot spots, continuously during engine operation, and harmonising temperatures throughout the block in the process.

Hopefully, I'll see mpg improvement as a result of these changes (will post, when that's become clear - or otherwise), and even extended engine life. As far as I'm concerned, a very satisfactory result!

V. interesting post Ron. Was someone else about to try this also (Hembracho? Apole?) as that would increase the testing sample. I'm about to do a coolant change (always manana) and am tempted to try this stuff. May help mpg especially on the short (5 mile) runs I'm doing to work each day.

mikeonb4c wrote:V. interesting post Ron. Was someone else about to try this also (Hembracho? Apole?) as that would increase the testing sample. I'm about to do a coolant change (always manana) and am tempted to try this stuff. May help mpg especially on the short (5 mile) runs I'm doing to work each day.

apole had it installed last week, Mike, while other work was done - not sure if he's back on the road yet though. I know that, although he now has one, he didn't have a TM-2, or equivalent, before the MotorMax went in, so he probably won't be able to offer before and after figures as such - but I too, am very interested to hear his views.

Ron Miel wrote:

mikeonb4c wrote:V. interesting post Ron. Was someone else about to try this also (Hembracho? Apole?) as that would increase the testing sample. I'm about to do a coolant change (always manana) and am tempted to try this stuff. May help mpg especially on the short (5 mile) runs I'm doing to work each day.

apole had it installed last week, Mike, while other work was done - not sure if he's back on the road yet though. I know that, although he now has one, he didn't have a TM-2, or equivalent, before the MotorMax went in, so he probably won't be able to offer before and after figures as such - but I too, am very interested to hear his views.

Maybe he will at least get some idea of improved mpg. Also (contentious I know) but time to warm up may be relfected in the time it takes temp gauge to move off the cold stop (have you noticed any change there yourself?). I tend to notice this as I do an exact repeat journey most days to work, where the only significant variable is the time of year. Mind you it may not be relevant if/as the coolant cannot circulate fully anyway until the thermostat opens

Ron Miel wrote:

mikeonb4c wrote:V. interesting post Ron. Was someone else about to try this also (Hembracho? Apole?) as that would increase the testing sample. I'm about to do a coolant change (always manana) and am tempted to try this stuff. May help mpg especially on the short (5 mile) runs I'm doing to work each day.

apole had it installed last week, Mike, while other work was done - not sure if he's back on the road yet though. I know that, although he now has one, he didn't have a TM-2, or equivalent, before the MotorMax went in, so he probably won't be able to offer before and after figures as such - but I too, am very interested to hear his views.

BTW, if you do go for it, don't buy it direct, using the MotorMax EU online shop - not that I could get that to work, due apparently to them being in mid-move from Edinburgh to London. It's available here, for £16.30 delivered, against £23.90 direct: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... SA:GB:1123

mikeonb4c wrote:

Ron Miel wrote:

mikeonb4c wrote:V. interesting post Ron. Was someone else about to try this also (Hembracho? Apole?) as that would increase the testing sample. I'm about to do a coolant change (always manana) and am tempted to try this stuff. May help mpg especially on the short (5 mile) runs I'm doing to work each day.

apole had it installed last week, Mike, while other work was done - not sure if he's back on the road yet though. I know that, although he now has one, he didn't have a TM-2, or equivalent, before the MotorMax went in, so he probably won't be able to offer before and after figures as such - but I too, am very interested to hear his views.

Maybe he will at least get some idea of improved mpg. Also (contentious I know) but time to warm up may be relfected in the time it takes temp gauge to move off the cold stop (have you noticed any change there yourself?). I tend to notice this as I do an exact repeat journey most days to work, where the only significant variable is the time of year. Mind you it may not be relevant if/as the coolant cannot circulate fully anyway until the thermostat opens

I never look at the Mazda gauge, much preferring the TM-2 bling - their sensors are mounted immediately adjacent to each other, BTW.

mikeonb4c wrote:

Ron Miel wrote:

mikeonb4c wrote:V. interesting post Ron. Was someone else about to try this also (Hembracho? Apole?) as that would increase the testing sample. I'm about to do a coolant change (always manana) and am tempted to try this stuff. May help mpg especially on the short (5 mile) runs I'm doing to work each day.

apole had it installed last week, Mike, while other work was done - not sure if he's back on the road yet though. I know that, although he now has one, he didn't have a TM-2, or equivalent, before the MotorMax went in, so he probably won't be able to offer before and after figures as such - but I too, am very interested to hear his views.

Maybe he will at least get some idea of improved mpg. Also (contentious I know) but time to warm up may be relfected in the time it takes temp gauge to move off the cold stop (have you noticed any change there yourself?). I tend to notice this as I do an exact repeat journey most days to work, where the only significant variable is the time of year. Mind you it may not be relevant if/as the coolant cannot circulate fully anyway until the thermostat opens

I reckon the most important thing is whether he confirms the minimal or zero block surface temperature rise after engine switch off - I know his temp sensor is also at the front of the block, so it could well be similar. Either way though, there's no doubt about the change in that respect on our motor. MPG change will take longer to assess and also, because of the way LPG tank filling cuts off on a pressure (therefore also ambient temperature sensitive) basis, it needs smoothing by a good number of tank refills to get a reliable result.

Hi there,

I had the coolant enhancer put in late last week, whilst other work was being done that required a coolant change.

I can't say much about the running temperature as my temp monitor (the smaller one to the TM-2) was installed at the same time so I don't have before and after figures.

However one thing I will say is that the car does warm up alot faster. Like Ron's mine runs on LPG after the coolant reaches a set temperature. On mine this is 40 degrees and although the weather has got alot colder recently, mine moves over to LPG much much faster.

Ron, one thing to remember is that the thermostat will regulate (or try to) the coolant temp. On the V6 this is 83 degrees so I'm not sure if the car will run cooler, but the enhancer is supposed to improve/even out the heat transfer properties of the coolant. I read into that, that the car would warm up faster, and be better at shedding heat when it needed to.

Anyway so far I'm impressed, and it seems to have been worth it.

Wonder if this stuff starts to degrade after a while?

BTW the shop on ebay accepted a best offer of £10, plus the postage, much cheaper than buying direct.

Andy

apole wrote:Hi there,

I had the coolant enhancer put in late last week, whilst other work was being done that required a coolant change.

I can't say much about the running temperature as my temp monitor (the smaller one to the TM-2) was installed at the same time so I don't have before and after figures.

However one thing I will say is that the car does warm up alot faster. Like Ron's mine runs on LPG after the coolant reaches a set temperature. On mine this is 40 degrees and although the weather has got alot colder recently, mine moves over to LPG much much faster.

Ron, one thing to remember is that the thermostat will regulate (or try to) the coolant temp. On the V6 this is 83 degrees so I'm not sure if the car will run cooler, but the enhancer is supposed to improve/even out the heat transfer properties of the coolant. I read into that, that the car would warm up faster, and be better at shedding heat when it needed to.

Anyway so far I'm impressed, and it seems to have been worth it.

Wonder if this stuff starts to degrade after a while?

BTW the shop on ebay accepted a best offer of £10, plus the postage, much cheaper than buying direct.

Andy

Hi Andy

Glad to hear you're getting similar quick warm up results. What about temperature change after a run, then switch off?

I've no idea what coolant temperature my LPG switchover is set to occur at (I assume that "40 degrees", in your case, means coolant temperature as measured at the LPG vaporiser's heat exchanger interface, and not as measured at your monitor's external sensor?) - I just know the, now much reduced, TM-2 indicated block exterior temperature at which switchover occurs. Clearly, if it is switching over before the block surface reaches the same temperature as it did before, then the coolant is carrying away combustion product heat from inside the block more rapidly - and therefore the coolant itself is reaching LPG switchover level faster.

The thermostat only aids coolant temperature rise until reaching the lower end of the coolant's designed operating temperature range - MotorMax serves to help the coolant reach that point faster by conducting more heat into it from the engine. After that, the thermostat has no role in dynamic temperature regulation, and as you say, MotorMax claims to continue transferring heat, out of the block to the radiator's cooling fins, faster than standard coolant - therefore holding down engine temperature rise and producing a cooler running engine.

As it clearly does transfer heat better in the warm up phase and, in the case of our engine at least, also reducing hot spots and so holding down temperature gain at our TM-2 sensor after switch off, I see no reason to doubt its ability to maintain a cooler running engine overall.

So, fast warm up until the thermostat opens, then cooler running, without hotspots, once it has opened. That's what's claimed, and that's what mine seems to support so far.

As far as degradation is concerned, it's ph neutral, therefore not chemically active in water, and it's claimed to be good for at least the life of the coolant mix.

Cheers

David

Very interesting thread.
It seems to me that this product is basically doing what it says on the tin, which is a bonus these days. I, like Mike, have a very short journey to work everyday (10 mins) so by the time the engine has warmed up it's time to turn it off! Because of this I don't bother to manually switch over to LPG injection on these shorter journeys as I have assumed there would be no point as I wouldn't benefit in MPG and would be just wasting gas.
This assumption seems to be confirmed also as with a full LPG conversion (as previously mentioned in earlier posts) doesn't automatically change over to LPG until a certain temp is reached (40 degrees).
If this product is doing what is suggested - warms the engine up quicker (which means I can use LPG injection on shorter journeys) and will possibly give better MPG as well, then it could be worth a punt. For the price there's not much to lose.........is there?

Andrew

Hi guys, is it just a case of tipping this stuff into the header tank and run the vehicle , is it that easy
If so i wouldn't mind giving it a try cause i run on LPG as well

Iz

wishmaster wrote:Hi guys, is it just a case of tipping this stuff into the header tank and run the vehicle , is it that easy
If so i wouldn't mind giving it a try cause i run on LPG as well

Iz

Here's what Haydn Callow recommended in another thread on this subject:

"What you suggest could work but sucking 1lt out may bring the coolant level down below the level of the "top" small pipe that enters the tank on the L/H side...doing this is a big No !!No !! as air will enter.
I would suck out as much as you can without exposing that pipe....then add your 1lt of gubbins...if this brings the level above the full line...run the engine untill warm then wait for it to cool and suck out any excess untill the corect level is obtained..(Full line when cold)
No ..it will not stay in the tank...the coolant circulates through.."

I slightly modified that method, as I wanted to be absolutely sure that full mixing and distribution took place before sucking out any coolant with MotorMax already added. I therefore recommend:

1.) Check your coolant's anti-freeze strength. Hopefully, it's up to scratch - if not, get it sorted first.

2.) Using your anti-freeze hydrometer, or whatever, suck out just the coolant between the header tank's Full and Low marks. That gives enough space to replace it with about half of the 946 ml MotorMax bottle. Then run the Bongo for a few days to thoroughly mix and distribute it.

3.) Repeat 2.), using the other half of the MotorMax, and run that through for a few days. Then check anti-freeze strength again - mine had marginally reduced (to minus 29C protection) but is adequate until next replaced.

N.B. Only 812 ml MotorMax, in the Bongo's 13 litres total coolant, is required to do the job. Therefore the small amount, by then in weak solution, lost in the suck out stage of 3.) above, is unimportant - in fact the remaining concentration is still enough to allow some adding back of neat anti-freeze by the same process, if needed. Assuming 50/50 mix of water and anti-freeze in the first place, then one Full to Low suck out, and replace with neat anti-freeze, will do the job - and will not reduce the MotorMax below recommended concentration.

A small warning, on another tack:

apole and I have been exchanging PMs - it seems that not all peeps will necessarily get the same elimination of indicated temperature rise after engine switch off, that I have. I think this may be a function of exact placement of any external temperature sensor on the engine block (as opposed to the Mazda temperature gauge's sensor bulb, which extends into the cooling jacket) but there are still checks for us to do, before confirming that or not.

Hi there,

Regarding LPG changeover, the temp at which this happens is settable by the installer. I have a prins system on both a small smart car and my bongo. On the smart it changes at 27 degrees and runs fine. On the bongo it didn't run fine in colder weather so was increased to 40. So what I'm saying here is the temp it changes over depends on the system and the settings, some cars run from cold.

What I can confirm is that my bongo changes to lpg much sooner than before, okay I had a period a couple of weeks back when it took ages to warm up, my thermostat was faulty, but the 2 years or so prior to that on a daily run, there would be a point on that route when the car would switch over. That point is now much sooner, even in this much cooler weather which is good. So for once, a product that claims to make improvements does seem to work

The choice as to whether or not to put this in however, has to be a personal one, and nothing can replace a properly maintained and functioning system, far better to have everything clean and working as it should that hope a miracle bottle of chemicals can cure all if you know what I mean.

Anyway, I'm impressed so far and thinking hard about putting in my smart as those cars take 4ever and a month to warm up.

Andy

apole wrote:>
>
>
Anyway, I'm impressed so far and thinking hard about putting in my smart as those cars take 4ever and a month to warm up.

Andy

Ditto - I'm also going to put it in our Nissan Note. It's not LPG converted but the potential for improvement in mpg, and reduction of engine stress/wear, is the same for any (water cooled) internal combustion engine. For my money, those factors outweigh the faster switchover speed up in LPG conversions - which I see as primarily a by-product, and a useful confirmation of the correct working of MotorMax in its fundamental aims.

Will do the further checks (sensor placement, and aircon characteristics) mentioned in PM, later today Andy, and will now comment directly back in this thread,

The motormax solution sounds very much like "water wetter" as advocated by jamie of Di&Jamie. He said he's had very good reductions in operating temps, especially whilst towing.