Loss of water from expansion tank - advice wanted

[Simon Jones]

Cheers for the replies. Head bolts are already on order. Just need to find someone in Hants/Wilts/Berks that can do the testing. Looked up a few on Yell.com, so need to make a few calls.

[Simon Jones]

Having spent the weekend sticking everything back together, I still have the same problem with water coming out the expansion tank. So, any more ideas folks?

Here's a quick summary:

*New water pump - old one was fine anyway
*New thermostat. Tested it against old one & the replacement opened a bit faster & wider.
*Replaced all the main hoses with silicon hoses - there was no sign of damage, leaks or faults with the old ones
*Head re-surfaced & pressure tested - no faults found
*Re-assembled with new gaskets throughout
*Reverse flushed with hose pipe to remove any crud
*Re-filled with plain water via funnel into bleed pipe (no point using anti-freeze until the fault is resolved)

Started it up, let any excess air out of bleed pipe & ran for a few minutes - barely enough to show on the temperature gauge. At that point the level in the expansion tank rose & started to come out of the filler neck (no cap on at this point). Let some air / steam / water out the bleed pipe & then the over-flow started again.

Repeated the above with the expansion tank cap on. This time nothing came out, but I opened the bleed pipe there was a gush of steam complete with whisling kettle effect. The top radiator hose was barely warm at this point & the bottom one was cold as expected.

There is a slight pulse in the air from the bleed pipe which is why I intially suspected compression from the cylinder is getting into the water system. I can't tell if there's any exhaust smells in there as there is still a whiff of parafin in there from degreasing the head.

I have noticed that the higher the revs, the less steam comes from the pipe. As soon as it drops to idling speed, the steam increases. This is the opposite to what I would have expected. Is there anywhere in the engine where pressure drops proportional to the revs?

I will try re-bleeding the system again tonight, but it's not even getting to the required temperature to open the thermostat, which is what the bleeding procedrue requires.

This would suggest three areas to investigate:

1) The head is faulty even though it passed the pressure test
2) The seal around the head gasket is no better after a skim, clean & new gasket
3) The fault lies somewhere else in the system such as the main block (seems very unlikely) or another part of the system where water circulates, such as the turbo. This is quite easy to by-pass so will be next on the list to try.

[mikeonb4c]

Oh cripes Simon - wish I could help.
My back would have gone within minutes of starting a job like that, let alone get it done like you have. Can't help but think that - provided you are confident there is no blockage in the plumbing, and a testing kit doesnt show exhaust gases in the coolant - there are not many other things it can be. The turbo was found to have been linked to someone elses problem, so let hope that may be the case here.

Good luck, is all i can say.

[Simon Jones]

Spoke to Bellhill - they feel that the head is the likely cause & that even a pressure test may not spot a problem. I then spoke to someone else who has a lot of experience the WL-T engine when installed in the Ford Ranger. He says he has seen five vehicles with the same symptoms & it was caused by a crack in the engine block itself.

Two very different opinions & two very different sized repair bills. Anyone else had a block crack? If it's not the head, then the block is the only other component which combines the water & compression. Sounds like a whole new engine

[maxheadroom]

sorry if I have missed this already in the thread but didn't someone have trouble with the water seals on their turbo and it could pressurize the water, just a thought.

I had the oil seals go on a saab turbo and it pressurized the oil so much it all came out the dipstick tube.

[coco bongo]

Simon Heaton has had a cracked block, and had water pushing out. Got a new one from Bellhill a V reg engine if i remember rightly. What sort of state is the radiator in?.

[Simon Jones]

The turbo is my next & pretty much last thing to try. I'll try to bypass the pipes around that & see what happens. Strange thing is that the pressure seems to drop as the revs increases - I would expect the opposite if the turbo was pressurising the coolant.

Other option - does anyone have a spare, but working head that I could fit as a temporary measure to at least elimate that?

Coco bongo - as far as I can tell the radiator is fine. The water is coming out before the top hose even starts to get warm, so at that point the thermostat is closed so the flow is only across the top of the rad, rather than thru it. I'll have a chat to Simon H. Cheers.

[daveblueozzie]

*Re-filled with plain water via funnel into bleed pipe

I'm not techie minded so forgive me if i make a fool of myself here .
when i had my hoses changed at wheelquick they obviously drained and flushed the system, but they filled from the expansion tank, not via the bleed hose with a hose pipe. letting any air out as needed, when they were satisfied that was OK they poured coolant into the expansion tank at the same time as letting water out of the bleed hose, when the coolant came out of the hose ,they blocked it off ,then started the engine and kept an eye on the levels topping up as needed, they put the front and rear heaters on to open the thermostat, and then let it run to temp topping as needed as the air came out into the expansion tank.
now you lot probably know all this , but it seems funny to me to fill via the bleed tube.

[Simon Jones]

Well, having tried several methods of refilling, I used an idea suggested by another member to fill up via the bleed tube. Either way, I can get the system brimming with water & no obvious airlocks, then the moment I fire the engine up, it all starts to come out again.

I'm interested in the tip about " ... they put the front and rear heaters on to open the thermostat". As far as I understand, the coolant flows to both heater matrixes regardless of the controls being set to hot or cold. Surely by turning the fans on, that would have the effect of drawing heat away from the engine, thus slowing down the warm-up process. I remember that was an old trick to assist with overheating was to set all the heaters on hot with the fan on max.

I'm going to have another drain & refill session tomorrow when I bypass the turbo.

[dandywarhol]

Yep, you're right Simon - it's a mistake in the factsheet.

[mikeonb4c]

Out of interest, have you done it as per the workshop manual Simon?

Good luck tomorrow with the turbo 'option'. You deserve a lucky break.

[daveblueozzie]

Like i said I'm a bit thick with this, so bear with me, Mike at wheelquick has fitted a lot of silicon hoses supplied by flippa, me, bdc,mountain goat to name a few. now i might have got it wrong in saying to open the thermostat , but he deffo puts the heating on in the front as well as the back to warm the pipes and the make the flow of coolant move around ,which obviously will then open the thermostat, he does this with all the bongoes he fits the pipes to and the only prob he had was a faulty thermostat in one bongo which he replaced and then all was ok.

[The Great Pretender]

Like i said I'm a bit thick with this, so bear with me, Mike at wheelquick has fitted a lot of silicon hoses supplied by flippa, me, bdc,mountain goat to name a few. now i might have got it wrong in saying to open the thermostat , but he deffo puts the heating on in the front as well as the back to warm the pipes and the make the flow of coolant move around ,which obviously will then open the thermostat, he does this with all the bongoes he fits the pipes to and the only prob he had was a faulty thermostat in one bongo which he replaced and then all was ok.

Maybe it's to make shure the coolant is flowing around all of the system Dave so they can remove as much air as possible.

[dandywarhol]

I've posted it a few times and I'll do it again - the heaters are continually fed by coolant - there's no water valve, so setting the heaters to hot will only make the system take more time to heat up because some of the heat is going into the van. Mikes got it wrong IMO. But, the way he does it won't cause the system not to bleed.

[The Great Pretender]

I've posted it a few times and I'll do it again - the heaters are continually fed by coolant - there's no water valve, so setting the heaters to hot will only make the system take more time to heat up because some of the heat is going into the van. Mikes got it wrong IMO. But, the way he does it won't cause the system not to bleed.

Belive he does it so as he knows coolant is flowing as he monitors rad temp as well.
How do the heaters work when set to cold?