Page 2 of 3

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:13 am
by banjoboy1
As I have tried to make clear at my first I post believe the engine is running hotter than previously.Whether the engine should reach normal temp in 6 miles (40mph dual carriage way drive) I don't know.The rad fans kicked in when I was revving the engine while stationary but didn't stop on for long so although I am not happy with temp situation I intend to take another longer drive this morning and see how the system behaves.Very risky I know but yesterday a low coolant alarm would not have been any use as the level in the tank was normal.What would a digital temp gauge have told me ?What is a normal operating temp range?If I keep the Bongo I have seen temp gauges on amazon loads cheaper than the digital ones which would be just as good I believe.

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:25 am
by scanner
banjoboy1 wrote: I post believe the engine is running hotter than previously.
What makes you believe that? I hope it isn't any slight change in the reading of the standard un-modified temp gauge as it isn't anywhere near that accurate.

Also (everything else being in good order) it is the thermostat that controls the running temperature of the engine and nothing else. If in normal use the engine continually runs hotter than it should there is a lack of cooling for some reason

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:13 am
by Driver+Passengers
There are a number of locations at which an after-market temperature sensor can be installed. There are some threaded holes in the cylinder head that some folk use - but there is quite a lot of metal between these holes and the coolant jacket in the head, so you'll get a "slow/averaged" reading. The dash gauge and the ECU temp sender thread into specific holes in the block and are in contact with the coolant - that will give the "fastest" reading. Many use the large coolant stub on the front-offside of the head, just below the dash temp sender. This is a thin-wall stub and gives a good approximation of coolant temperature as it's flowing out towards the rad. There are many variables, such as metal thickness to coolant, probe type, contact area, ambient temperature, exposure to wind, etc... etc...
banjoboy1 wrote:What would a digital temp gauge have told me ?What is a normal operating temp range?
Installing a digital temp gauge will give you a better resolution - ie you can distinguish between 82 and 83 degrees more readily than a wavy needle. Whether it's accurate, or to what degree it is accurate, or how closely it compares with other people's gauges is largely irrelevant (due to the difference in probe location, air flow, etc...) The 'stat starts to open at 82 degrees and rad fans kick in somewhere around 90, though these figures relate to different parts of the engine and when under load the heat profile will not be uniform across the engine so an after market sensor may read different figures if the van is on the driveway, being driven, etc... It gives you an eyeball view on temperature at some point in the system - that's all, but often enough.

So a digital temp gauge will give you a readout that, over a number of drives, will become familiar to you. You might be reading 79 on the flat and 83 up hill, or 85 "normal" and up into the 90s when under load. My point is that you should start off with the mindset that the values will be particular to your van, rather than making comparisons too soon. A 99p LCD temp gauge from eBay and a hose clamp would do you fine for a bit. A £10 LCD dual temp gauge would also do. They may not last as long, be as accurate, reliable as other products, so you make the choice.

I go back to what I said earlier - if it is running hotter, there will be a reason. Either coolant strength, illusion, or inefficient cooling system (air bubbles/low flow).

LCA will tell you if you boil over, lose coolant, and the level drops. This might be a few seconds after the boil over, but will alert you to stop and might save further damage. There used to be a HCA (high coolant alarm) that would warn you if the started to expand air/coolant, like in a boil over, and the coolant started rising up towards the header tank cap. This would tell you a few seconds earlier than an LCA and save further damage. But they're no longer available. The other thing an LCA will tell you is when you get in and turn the key, if you have enough coolant in. You won't check under the bonnet every time you start and the LCA can save further damage. There are homemade versions on eBay (£10) but many go tried-and-tested. Again you choose.

I'm an advocate of directly recording pressure. My experience is my own, but cold pressure test passed (no apparent leaks), bled up ok (absence of bubbles at the end), didn't do a sniff test but expect it would have passed, revved/idled it up to "fans-on" and no signs of over pressuring or boiling over. Direct recording of pressure and throttle over time and I could then "see" on my graphs what was going on under normal conditions.

If it's a badly blown gasket/head, it shouldn't bleed up properly, you should see gas bubbles all the time, or at the very least, a sniff test will fail.

If it's marginal, then you could get small amounts of gas introduced under load.

If the system isn't air tight then you could get small amounts of air sucked in on cooling cycles when the system draws a small vacuum.

If it hasn't been bled properly then you could have residual amounts of air in the system.

If the first, it should be obvious very quickly. If it's any of the last three, you may never notice, or you may boil over in a few weeks time.

Basically, if gas/air settles in the head or the heater matrixes (all local maxima that can reduce cooling effects and/or coolant flow), then you could begin to run hotter, eventually boil the coolant, spit out coolant and then properly overheat - maybe in a few weeks. The problem is you can't tell if and how much air/gas is in there at any one time. The only thing you can tell is how hot is appears to be running at some single point in the system, what the coolant level is and how it changes (visual inspection, HCA, LCA), and what overall pressure the system is reaching (bespoke measurement).


You might be all ok - there are a lot of scare stories about Bongo engines and I'm perhaps not helping the matter with some what I write. But bottom line is that you want to be sure you've got a system that's up to scratch first. You've replaced the radiator. Consider new thermostat and water pump, then put it back together, cold pressure test, etc.

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:49 am
by Northern Bongolow
banjoboy1 wrote:I think I may have a problem --------------------- I replaced the radiator.Being new to Bongos I had to study the video on how to bleed the system on youtube.After 3 attempts mainly because the bottom hose remained cold I was reasonably satisfied with my job but not fully certain.
the system will still have air in if the bottom hose has not got HOT. the bottom hose can vacuum and suck flat during bleeding, sometimes you have to massage the hoses in various parts of the system to establish coolant flow.

i would suggest you dont drive it, and that you bleed it again until the bottom hose is hot and the stat opens, this will help to purge the system of air. pay particular attention to the temp outputs of both heaters when set to hot, this can give a guide to things not being well.

lastly, go with your hunch, you really know your bongo best, if its not looking right----it wont be.

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:57 pm
by banjoboy1
Firstly thanks to all who have shown an interest in my problem.There is plenty to consider and learn about.With regard to my many repeated bleedings perhaps I should explain that I have endeavoured to carry them out on my own i.e not with three people as per the youtube vid.Nevertheless I used some ingenuity and only had real difficulty in the final bit where you insert the bleed pipe bung back in while ensuring the expansion tank doesn't empty.Very tricky avoiding hot water on the hands!However I can only recall seeing any bubbles on the first attempt although I re bled 4 times .I am a bit puzzled why every time I have bled the system the bottom hose remained stubbornly closed until the engine was revved repeatedly for half an hour or so as I seem to have a problem with the engine heating up too quickly?Anyhow this morning by way of experiment I took the Bongo on a longer run (18 miles round trip) I drove up to 60mph on some stretches of the dual carriage way always watchful for any signs of steam.When I got home I checked all visible hoses and radiator and there was no sign of any leakage.The expansion tank which is very difficult to check the level of without removing the cap seemed to have emptied a little but on cooling after 2hrs or so was actually OK if not higher than when I started out.Not sure what this may mean other than perhaps I should go to specsavers?My local mechanic has a theory that my problems may be because the previous owner of my Bongo may have used something to seal a leaky head gasket which has now failed.When I reported that my old radiator appeared to be leaking it could of course have been venting under pressure as did the new one it was replaced with.What I don't understand is why I don't appear to have any problems now with excessive pressure and venting.Neither of my radiators have a vent tube and apparently are not designed to vent yet my new radiator leaked fliud and steam from the cap.Would there be any point in renewing the thermostat?I would have to bleed again of course.

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:18 pm
by Simon Jones
When the thermostat opens, it allows hot water to flow through the bottom the radiator hence why the hose gets warm. If the hose remains cold, it could be a sign that the thermostat is stuck shut so it's probably worth changing it and testing them both in a pan of boiling water to compare their performance. The genuine Mazda ones (available from club shop) are the best type to get.

Image

New vs. old

Image

Regardless of the 1.1 rating on the top, the radiator cap is not designed to vent which is why it doesn't have the spring loaded mechanism. If coolant is escaping from it, either it is not sealing correctly, or the valve on the expansion tank is not working at the right pressure, so coolant is finding it's way out via the weakest point.

Image

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:57 pm
by Northern Bongolow
the best way to test to get hot is to run in on the drive, not high speed driving, the through air will/should cool things down, no airflow on the drive will help to get it hotter, sooner.

if all is now well simply run at about 1500-2000 revs until the bottom hose gets too hot to hold for more than 20 secs or so. once the stat is open carry on with the revs until really hot, then turn off the engine for one min then turn on the ignition but not the engine-----the fans should then come on, and stay on for about 1--2 mins then go off.

this may take a while to do----maybe 15 mins. if the bottom hose doesnt get hot (it will ) the stat maybe stuck.


tip of the week--------dont do it early sunday morning. 8)

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:28 pm
by banjoboy1
Tried this as you described.Thermostat opens normally after 15mins or so of revving ,No signs of any leaks or steam from anywhere and front and rear heaters appear to work ok.Only one thing that concerns and that is that after turning off the engine and then switching on the ignition although the two fans came on they showed no signs of turning off after 5mins or so.When I switched of the ignition and then back on again they never started up again so.Whether there is any problem here I just don't know.I have a trip planned in a couple of weeks involving a 100 miles of motorway driving and I'm working towards being able to trust the Bongo to get me there.

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:52 pm
by Northern Bongolow
the reason for turning the engine off then turn the ignition on is to let the heat build up in the head, this triggers the fans to come as the water pump isnt circulating, if you had let the fans come on with just the ignition on---- then started the engine, the waterpump would remove the hot water from the head and away from the sensor, then the fans would go off.

all sounds good and normal to me :wink: .

enjoy your holiday.

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:07 pm
by banjoboy1
Further to my overheating saga I have installed the Haydn coolant alarm combined with a digital temp gauge.O what fun watching the temperature rising remorselessly.I have just returned after a 30min drive in mixed traffic situations and I am optimistic that things are reasonably Ok.I set the alarm to 100 degreesI don't know what is a recommended temp to set it at but anyway it never seemed in danger of reaching that figure .It seemed to favour 92-94 most of the time .Is that OK?When I came home I turned of the engine off switched back on again and the fans kicked in .The temp was momentarily 97 but reduced back down with the action of the fans.It occurs to me that I could use the gauge to check when the thermostat opens which should be useful.By the way although I fitted the alarms fairly easy I have come to grief somehow while attempting the modification of the standard gauge.This is the one where you put a100 ohm resistor into the gauge circuit after shorting the zener diode.When I turned the ignition key the needle deflected straight over to hot (engine cold) What have I done wrong ?Anyone else done the same?Also any advice regarding my running temps would be useful

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 8:30 pm
by Simon Jones
The reading will depend on where you mount the sensor and even then, every Bongo will give different readings based on driving conditions/style, amount of weight carried etc.

With regard to temp gauge, if you loosened the screws on the back of the instrument panel, then you've probably snapped one of the fine wires when tightening them back up. Fixable if you're handy with a soldering iron. If not, you can get complete instrument panel to cannibalise quite cheaply.

Image

Image

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:59 pm
by banjoboy1
Thank you Simon for the excellent photos.Your diagnosis of my problem re the attempted mod on gauge spot on.Unfortunately even armed with a magnifying glass and tweezers my soldering was not too good.The gauge now works but a bit erratically but no worries.Thanks again for taking an interest.I wonder whether you could tell me how the scavenger fan operates .Is there a sensor for it or is it on permanently.?Also with regard to engine temperatures does the air cooling effect of motorway driving lower the running temp compared to stop start city congestion?

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:11 pm
by Simon Jones
Sensor for scav fan is above the engine by the handbrake. If the wiring is disconnected, the fan will be on all the time. Info on testing it: http://igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/view ... it=+Sensor

The air flowing over the engine while driving does help to keep it cool, but the radiator does the majority of the cooling. A fast sprint down the motorway will run cooler than 5 minutes in a traffic jam.

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:25 am
by banjoboy1
Am I right in thinking that the scavenger fan is not as essential in cooling the engine as the two rad fans?At what temp is the fan sensor set?I believe it to be 90deg approx.Can anyone be more exact?I ask this because my experience so far with the TM-2 is that the temp is OK ( 92-94 ) while in motion but can climb towards the set alarm temp when stationary(100deg).I am sure that the fans are kicking in a lot later than 90deg.Is the sensor suspect ? Is it possible to fit an on/off switch easily to bypass the sensor? With regard to my alarm setting of 100deg is that about right ? I do understand the points made about the variations in running temps and the position of the sensor but I am surprised that the suppliers of the alarms give no guidance regarding settings.How hot is too hot with regard to damaging the engine?By this I mean not at what temp the coolant boils over but a safe temp before that.Also can anyone tell me the likely effects of a thermostat opening late say at 92 instead of 82?

Re: excessive coolant pressure

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:55 pm
by widdowson2008
banjoboy1 wrote:Am I right in thinking that the scavenger fan is not as essential in cooling the engine as the two rad fans?At what temp is the fan sensor set?I believe it to be 90deg approx.Can anyone be more exact?I ask this because my experience so far with the TM-2 is that the temp is OK ( 92-94 ) while in motion but can climb towards the set alarm temp when stationary(100deg).I am sure that the fans are kicking in a lot later than 90deg.Is the sensor suspect ? Is it possible to fit an on/off switch easily to bypass the sensor? With regard to my alarm setting of 100deg is that about right ? I do understand the points made about the variations in running temps and the position of the sensor but I am surprised that the suppliers of the alarms give no guidance regarding settings.How hot is too hot with regard to damaging the engine?By this I mean not at what temp the coolant boils over but a safe temp before that.Also can anyone tell me the likely effects of a thermostat opening late say at 92 instead of 82?
Image
scavenger fan is not as essential in cooling the engine as the two rad fans?
- Yes. From memory, it kicks in around 112.
At what temp is the fan sensor set? - Low speed 96, high speed 108 (ECU controlled)
climb towards the set alarm temp when stationary(100deg) - Normal, don't worry about it.
With regard to my alarm setting of 100deg is that about right ? - Had mine set at 100 for the last 5 years and happy with that.
thermostat opening late say at 92 instead of 82? - If that is really happening then change it - no question.