Bongo Fury

Morning Mike. We did the big clear up last night, Mrs M with whip made sure of that (ooh, I do love it when she gets the whip out!).

MotorMax s.g. is 1.02-1.04, so it's very close to that of water. Ethylene glycol is 1.125. Yes (to answer a question you posed earlier), all anti-freeze mix testers are hydrometers, as far as I know. MotorMax, to an anti-freeze tester is therefore going to look about the same as increased coolant dilution by water - and it's ph neutral. Incidentally, that's all the hydrometer is for - it doesn't reveal exhausted corrosion inhibitors.

Will be interested in the views of others, if/when they read the web pages I referred to but my impression was that sludge formation is the result of assuming too long a service life with mixed anti-freeze types in coolant, rather than increased chemical reaction between coolant and metals, or between anti-freeze 1 and and anti-freeze 2 (3, 4, etc. if really sloppy about it).

So, the message I get is flush out and replace with all one type, make sure you stick to that type and run it for its specified life. Any longer and you'll get sludge. Any less and you'll waste money, and destroy the planet.

well good info there Ron....... for me I am sticking with the Red Comma/Car Plan/Bluecol (all Tetrosyl brands) and changing 2 yearly..... personal choice.....but at least everyone can make an informed choice and maintain their Bongo to the way they feel is "right"....... better than one size fits all & my way is the only way approach....


I'm one of the old school...... I would rather replace parts that show signs of wear rather than replace when they fail (other than bulbs of course)....the kind of things are Brake pads/Tyres/Wipers for example.... just the way I am........ And I keep a selection of parts in my garage........general service ones plus other usual suspects that are known to wear out on a Bongo while in service....

Ron Miel wrote: >
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...Then I probably will change to 5 years red, still with MotorMax if there are no problems meanwhile, now that green/red after-market prices have apparently harmonised - but I will run it for its specified life, less an adjustment for MotorMax.......
>
>

Thinking some more about that, there will be no need for usage life adjustment if MotorMax is used to only replace water in the coolant mix, and not any part of whichever coolant is used - i.e., keep the coolant at 50% of the total mix.

That will be easy, when doing a flush out and complete replacement of all coolant. Recommended mix of MotorMax is one part in sixteen, so MotorMax 1: water 7: coolant 8. Job done.

Get that coolant out of the garage, Mike, and order your MotorMax now

mikexgough wrote:well good info there Ron....... for me I am sticking with the Red Comma/Car Plan/Bluecol (all Tetrosyl brands) and changing 2 yearly..... personal choice.....but at least everyone can make an informed choice and maintain their Bongo to the way they feel is "right"....... better than one size fits all & my way is the only way approach....


I'm one of the old school...... I would rather replace parts that show signs of wear rather than replace when they fail (other than bulbs of course)....the kind of things are Brake pads/Tyres/Wipers for example.... just the way I am........ And I keep a selection of parts in my garage........general service ones plus other usual suspects that are known to wear out on a Bongo while in service....

Pays your money and takes your choice Mike but please don't destroy my planet while I'm still using it

Ron Miel wrote:>
>
>
Will be interested in the views of others, if/when they read the web pages I referred to but my impression was that sludge formation is the result of assuming too long a service life with mixed anti-freeze types in coolant, rather than increased chemical reaction between coolant and metals, or between anti-freeze 1 and and anti-freeze 2 (3, 4, etc. if really sloppy about it).

So, the message I get is flush out and replace with all one type, make sure you stick to that type and run it for its specified life. Any longer and you'll get sludge. Any less and you'll waste money, and destroy the planet.

More thought on that:

Logically, if OAT corrosion inhibitors don't react with older inhibitor additives, as claimed, and are totally different chemicals, then the two types of inhibitor will be likely to be chemically active in the coolant mix in parallel with each other, not additively. Therefore, the weakened (by alteration of the overall mix with red/orange coolant top up) blue/green coolant inhibitors will no longer last whatever their specified life in say a 50/50 solution originally was, and the weak solution of OAT inhibitors in a red/orange coolant top up will last no time at all - after which corrosion and sludge will occur before you expect it.

So that will be due to chemical interaction between (inhibitor-depleted) coolant and metals. However, it will not be directly due to increased reactivity resulting from mixing old and new inhibitors but to earlier than expected exhaustion of those inhibitors, and resulting loss of their protection.

That make sense?

Cor...and I only said check yer antifreeze



H

mikeonb4c wrote:Interesting and cheap device. I note it says only suitable for use wih ethylene glycol type anti-freeze, but I thought I'd read on another thread here that e/g type antifreeze is becoming increasingly rare?

Sorry Harry. Mike started it with this but I own up to having had too much free time over Christmas for my own good. Hope you had a good one. Mine was successful inasmuch as I can still do my trousers up - just

Harry wrote:Cor...and I only said check yer antifreeze



H

mikeonb4c wrote:

hembramacho wrote:I tested mine with one of these - just the job.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_229902

Andrew

Interesting and cheap device. I note it says only suitable for use wih ethylene glycol type anti-freeze, but I thought I'd read on another thread here that e/g type antifreeze is becoming increasingly rare?

And all I did was mention that I had already tested mine!

Andrew

hembramacho wrote:

mikeonb4c wrote:

hembramacho wrote:I tested mine with one of these - just the job.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stor ... yId_229902

Andrew

Interesting and cheap device. I note it says only suitable for use wih ethylene glycol type anti-freeze, but I thought I'd read on another thread here that e/g type antifreeze is becoming increasingly rare?

And all I did was mention that I had already tested mine!

Andrew

Yeah, not your doing Andrew. It was that Mike bloke who started asking questions, and me what was daft enough to try to answer

...is what I ought to do

But there's an important point here. The question was asked because there was a possibility the product might not always give useful results, especially if liquids other than ethylene glycol (OAT, Motormax etc.) are used in the coolant mix. At the end of a lengthy discussion, I think we've established that:

1) The device is a hydrometer whose measuring scale is based on the assumption that a material of SG 1.125 approx is used as antifreeze in the coolant mix.
2) Unless there is a correlation between chemical deterioration of anti-freeze and resultant specific gravity (which is possible), then a hydrometer cannot really tell you 'the condition of your coolant'. It does not measure pH for example, but merely tells you what % of ethylene glycol you may have present in your coolant, assuming you have only ethylene glycol in the mix. If you happen to have used OAT, or if you've added Motormax, its readings may lead you to believe your degree of protection is low when it isn't.
3) The claim made often on BF that mixing two types of antifreeze (OAT and ethylene glycol) can cause dangerous sludging, may need further investigation.

We've thrown other topics about like this on BF and got really worthwhile results (its kind of a BF trademark I reckon ). Vendors can be quite artful at presenting products to sound good whilst obscuring what may be significant limitations. Harrys applause is well deserved I think. Well done Ron

mikeonb4c wrote:

...is what I ought to do

Not at all Mike - you always have some interesting, worthwhile and valid points!

mikeonb4c wrote: But there's an important point here. The question was asked because there was a possibility the product might not always give useful results, especially if liquids other than ethylene glycol (OAT, Motormax etc.) are used in the coolant mix. At the end of a lengthy discussion, I think we've established that:

1) The device is a hydrometer whose measuring scale is based on the assumption that a material of SG 1.125 approx is used as antifreeze in the coolant mix.
2) Unless there is a correlation between chemical deterioration of anti-freeze and resultant specific gravity (which is possible), then a hydrometer cannot really tell you 'the condition of your coolant'. It does not measure pH for example, but merely tells you what % of ethylene glycol you may have present in your coolant, assuming you have only ethylene glycol in the mix. If you happen to have used OAT, or if you've added Motormax, its readings may lead you to believe your degree of protection is low when it isn't.
3) The claim made often on BF that mixing two types of antifreeze (OAT and ethylene glycol) can cause dangerous sludging, may need further investigation.

Although to me it just floats some balls in a small tube!
Even it does only give a rough estimate of the antifreeze strength following the adding of various other liquids, surely it's not going to be a million miles away. With the current temp around -1, and with the last check it was good for -17, I can't see the temperature going down as far as it being a problem, although I do see the point of the guage being slightly inaccurate due to the liquid being tested is not 100% the liquid it should be testing!
I'm that paranoid at the moment anyway that I also do a visual check before I start it it up, although the bongo hasn't moved since the 23rd!

Andrew

Ron Miel wrote:Yeah, not your doing Andrew. It was that Mike bloke who started asking questions, and me what was daft enough to try to answer

Yeah I know - you two really need to get out in your bongos more.

Andrew

hembramacho wrote:

Ron Miel wrote:Yeah, not your doing Andrew. It was that Mike bloke who started asking questions, and me what was daft enough to try to answer

Yeah I know - you two really need to get out in your bongos more.

Andrew

I get better fuel consumption by looking at it out the window while typing on here

At £1.99 the hydrometer is harmless I reckon as long as it doesn't cause false alarm and if you know nothing about what's in the coolant system and need some reassurance it isn't likely to freeze up in cold weather. But in that situation I'd be wanting to change it anyway and start recording coolant change (due) dates. Once I know whats in the system, and given that 50/50 is more than enough protection in our climate, I would relax and just make sure any tops were made using 50/50.

I was gritting my teeth for doing my coolant change this week (not feeing very 'up for it' on DIY jobs just now due to various anatomical probs and the cold weather) but the weather is really putting me off!

mikeonb4c wrote:

hembramacho wrote:Yeah I know - you two really need to get out in your bongos more.

I get better fuel consumption by looking at it out the window while typing on here

mikeonb4c wrote: At £1.99 the hydrometer is harmless I reckon as long as it doesn't cause false alarm and if you know nothing about what's in the coolant system and need some reassurance it isn't likely to freeze up in cold weather. But in that situation I'd be wanting to change it anyway and start recording coolant change (due) dates. Once I know whats in the system, and given that 50/50 is more than enough protection in our climate, I would relax and just make sure any tops were made using 50/50.

Totally agree with that one Mike

mikeonb4c wrote: I was gritting my teeth for doing my coolant change this week (not feeing very 'up for it' on DIY jobs just now due to various anatomical probs and the cold weather) but the weather is really putting me off!

So that's where all the grit went when it should have been on the roads!

Andrew