Coolant pressure sensor

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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:12 pm

Precisely, but the full answer is not a short one... :shock:

Over time, I became convinced that there was a gasket leak of combustion gas into the coolant system. No other symptoms such as oil in the coolant or mayonnaise in the oil were apparent.

The van has overheated four times under my ownership, that I know of:
- months ago, on the drive from cold after a vacuum fill
- a couple of weeks later, badly, in slow traffic, up to 105 degC, kept driving to clear the motorway, front heater blowing hot, cold, hot, cold, etc..., bled in a car park then drover >1300 miles, going pffft every 15 minutes or so.
- a month or two ago, coming back from the Red Squirrel, up to 98 degC, caught very quickly
- a couple of weeks ago, during normal driving, up to 96 degC but resolved itself.

I first installed a coolant pressure sensor at the end of the bleed hose using a couple of airline couplings and some epoxy putty. This got me some readings, including "vent events" where the header tank cap would blow off pressure. I experienced a little coolant loss from here, but no noticeable drop in level was apparent.

I then confidently drilled a hole in the header tank and installed another sensor there, again with putty. I drilled another hole to fit the working sensor (the one I'd installed first was one I had blown by fitting the connector the wrong way round). This then became the source of a pressure leak itself and despite several more applications of epoxy putty and two-part epoxy, continued to leak.

While I had this pressure leak and was monitoring pressure at the header tank, I got some traces that correlated pressure rise with the use of my right foot. Driving gently, I'd managed a couple of thousand miles and become increasingly convinced that the gasket had gone.

On removing the old thermostat, I discovered that I had incorrectly replaced it last time I had it out to pan test. The rubber gasket was still held against the flat surface of the upper thermostat housing and I had simply put the thermostat into the recess of the bottom and bolted it together - like a duvet rather than a sleeping bag, if you know what I mean. Ady and I both noticed a small drip from there so it is conceivable that I had been sucking air into that point as the system cooled. As I said, there was no noticeable drop in coolant level in the header tank over time, so I don't think it was leaking badly at all.

I removed the head, decked the block, replaced the gasket and applied Stag Wellseal to block and head upon refitting, having the head neither cold or hot pressure tested, nor skimmed.

Still with a leaky header tank, I have conducted half a dozen road tests and in each case, the pressure is no longer rising as it did under load. I can assume therefore that a) the head itself is ok, and b) the gasket replacement was successful.

I've peaked at around 10.5 psi during the last few road tests, having incrementally lessened the pressure leak from my old header tank but it still drops off over time. Drives ok, but not ideal to habitually run a van with a weakly pressurised coolant system, despite the system being unpressurised after bleeding and getting the 'stat open immediately before a drive. A van should be left to cool somewhat after bleeding and before driving.

Peterrc brought his spare header tank round last week (for which I need to pay him, still...).

I used a little fabric oxy powder to soak it then rinsed it out. Biting the bullet again, and with the benefit of hindsight/experience, I fitted a pressure sensor to it, too, on the small hollow blanked stub on the top left. Putty round the port, pressed in and then coated in two-part epoxy and cured with the aid of a hairdryer.

The logical next step then was a cold pressure test, which I have now completed.

Result: 12psi for 15 minutes - success.


Having seen Ady's pressure switches and dial gauge and discussed the same with others, the idea that while monitoring temperature and coolant level are useful, head-saving techniques, going from first principles suggests that monitoring pressure in a sealed system will give indication of any problem, anomaly or typical behaviour earlier than either level or temperature responds. With the sensors hooked up to the Arduino, LCD and buzzer, I can alarm on an absolute value, rapid rise or rapid fall of pressure.

I have considered several times buying a low coolant alarm, and was prepared to bite the bullet last month if only I could get one with both low- and high- alarms. I couldn't, so I didn't. I've ordered the £10 jobbie from eBay instead. :oops: Ripe for modification. :D

I've taken so long in doing all this because the van was still running "okay" and I wanted to gather data (graphs) before and after any changes in the system. A normal person would have started with changing the 'stat and bleeding it, rather than going all out and removing the head. In that sense, "I'll never know what fixed it". That bothers me up to a point, but the end goal was regaining the reliability from the van that we need with a winter little'un on the way. And for me to be able to get away from it all the odd weekend. ;)

Is that clearer? :D
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:15 pm

Driver+Passengers wrote:I first installed a coolant pressure sensor at the end of the bleed hose using a couple of airline couplings and some epoxy putty. This got me some readings, including "vent events" where the header tank cap would blow off pressure. I experienced a little coolant loss from here, but no noticeable drop in level was apparent.
Clarification: coolant loss was from header tank overflow (blown out), not from where I had installed the sensor.
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:21 pm

The two tanks, old one on the left, Peter's on the right.
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New one in place, with mangled cap and schraeder valve in overflow hose, ready to connect. Easiest to install with a socket and extension, but if you only have a spanner, there's space at the back of the tank.
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Pump attached. Pressure read out with LCD and memory card inside the van.
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After cold bleed.
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:24 pm

Bled up easily. Van cooling down and then going to the beach with the dog. Fingers crossed the pressure trace looks right this time... [-o<
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by MountainGoat » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:55 pm

Good luck Matt, I hope everything works fine this time. The big test will be when you go over the pass at Glen Oggle. I trust that your fan will cut in as it should to prevent any overheating.

My Bongo was only ever tested once and that was due to being stuck in a big traffic jam in North Wales when coming back from a Welsh meet not long after I bought it. Just when I was starting to get worried the fan cut in and the temperature nose dived again. I think that I was getting free heating from the exhaust of bigdaddycain who was just in front of me in the traffic queue. Pity it was not winter.

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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Sat Nov 10, 2012 6:01 pm

MountainGoat wrote:Good luck Matt, I hope everything works fine this time. The big test will be when you go over the pass at Glen Oggle. I trust that your fan will cut in as it should to prevent any overheating.

My Bongo was only ever tested once and that was due to being stuck in a big traffic jam in North Wales when coming back from a Welsh meet not long after I bought it. Just when I was starting to get worried the fan cut in and the temperature nose dived again. I think that I was getting free heating from the exhaust of bigdaddycain who was just in front of me in the traffic queue. Pity it was not winter.

Tony
I trust that I'll get nowhere near that hot!

It behaved impeccably! I'm just getting a log as the van cools down (hopefully down to to -1psi) so I'll post the long awaited graph, later. [-o< =D> =D>
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:09 am

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There's about 4 hours of trace here. The van hadn't completely cooled after bleeding, so I wasn't surprised to see a maximum pressure <10psi. The logger was turned off between the 1st and 2nd trips to/from the beach, but left logging while we took a detour to let the kid play in another play park. Drove home on some small B roads. Logged the pressure drop when I parked up.

Healthy enough! :D :D

I'd call that "job done" so I'm going to stop updating this thread and completely rewire it all.
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by The Great Pretender » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:39 am

=D> A result then =D>
Did you find anything that pointed to the head gasket having 'blown' when stripped?
The thermostat seal problem is interesting :lol:

Hypothetically,if as the system starts to go negative air can be drawn in at the stat as it doesn't have to overcome the cap spring pressure first, air would then either percolate its way to the head or be trapped under the stat or both, also on start up for the short time it takes until heat produces positive pressure the pump will produce negative pressure in this area inducing more air into the system. If this air displaces coolant from the head as it is heated the coolant must raise the level in the tank leaving less room for expansion therefor increasing the pressure, if this then forces the cap open the sudden vacuum created could pull some of the air out of the head and then start all over again. :shock:
Groundhog day.......................... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:49 am

The Great Pretender wrote: =D> A result then =D>
Did you find anything that pointed to the head gasket having 'blown' when stripped?
The thermostat seal problem is interesting :lol:

Hypothetically,if as the system starts to go negative air can be drawn in at the stat as it doesn't have to overcome the cap spring pressure first, air would then either percolate its way to the head or be trapped under the stat or both, also on start up for the short time it takes until heat produces positive pressure the pump will produce negative pressure in this area inducing more air into the system. If this air displaces coolant from the head as it is heated the coolant must raise the level in the tank leaving less room for expansion therefor increasing the pressure, if this then forces the cap open the
sudden vacuum created could pull some of the air out of the head and then start all over again. :shock:
Groundhog day.......................... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
Shouldn't pull anything negative anywhere when the cap is forced open, just decrease positive pressure, no? With a momentary pressure differential between two different points in the system one could induce movement of air, I suppose.

First gasket I'd ever seen. Signs of non-uniformity but just had to crack on and finish the job.

Funny, Zoe referred to Groundhog day around day 6 of me doing all the work. :shock: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by The Great Pretender » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:01 am

:oops: My poor use of English, didn't want to infer negative pressure but it sounded better than suck it out.......... :lol:
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:12 am

Just being picky. ;) I knew what you meant.

If all I had was air ingress past the 'stat gasket and the symptoms I observed were those of an accumulation of expanding gas in the head leading to an overheat every month or two, I'll never know. #-o

Still probably cost me less than it would have had I taken it to a garage to get the 'stat changed, not that I ever would have! ;)
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:23 am

I've written a page for the wiki on Cold Pressure Testing the Coolant System.
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Driver+Passengers » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:54 pm

Short 3 mile drive, two ways. Didn't have the data card in but noticed the max pressure was 12psi just near when I got home. Definitely not up to full running temperature, gauge sitting at what I reckon was mid-70s. 150 miles to do this weekend, will bleed first and log.

Also reckon I saw a half a psi difference when I pressed the brake pedal so I will add pull-down resistors to ground all other ADC inputs.

Working on the wiring looms for all this kit - have a spare bleedhose sensor and can put the unit in another van to do a static hot pressure test, if required.
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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by The Great Pretender » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:25 pm

I have spoken to Matt about my previous alteration of the thermostat position to the outlet of the head.
I have since reverted back to the original stat position and made a restrictor with pressure sensor take off points each side of the restrictor and temperature take off point.


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I have observed that there is minimal difference in pressure either side of the restrictor at any revs and the pressure is only controlled by coolant temperature until the stat opens, and then, well you probably wouldn’t believe me………….
:shock: :shock: 8)


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Re: Coolant pressure sensor

Post by Northern Bongolow » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:42 pm

my water pump went yesterday. :shock: . the old one had fewer blades than the new one i fitted.
it now runs 2 psi higher coolant pressure. #-o #-o .
but this may be a good thing as it may raise the boiling point of the coolant. 8)
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