So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Technical questions and answers about the Mazda Bongo

Moderators: Doone, westonwarrior

User avatar
g8dhe
Supreme Being
Posts: 8910
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:06 pm
Location: Worthing, West Sussex.

So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Post by g8dhe » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:36 pm

With the coming of the E10 fuels on the forecourts 2020-01-01, and higher amounts later, should we be starting to think about the effects yet ?
I gather that there is a backup in the sense that each forecourt must retain 1 pump with E5 for those vehicles that aren't happy with E10, but this is only till the end of 2020 ......
I came across this article https://www.classic-american.com/the-tr ... americans/ which is well worth reading and despite its title it applies too any vehicle pre-2005 I gather.
Does anyone have genuine experience ?
Ady anything from the suppliers side ?
Bear in mind that our fuel pumps are fully immersed in the fuel and I suspect the majority of us have paper based fuel filters, so seals etc. could be badly affected ?
What about those who lay there vehicles up over winter, will the ethanol have separated out and left a watery sludge in the tank ?
Geoff
97 V6, AFT, full side conversion.
Image Spherical Visions
Bob
Supreme Being
Posts: 14578
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:54 pm
Location: North Somerset

Re: So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Post by Bob » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:02 pm

My '92 MX5 can't have ethanol bio-muck so it gets the expensive Esso. Note some parts of the country it does contain the stuff. :roll:

https://www.esso.co.uk/fuels-faqs

From the Triumph Owners' forum I seem to recal that Texaco doesn't add ethanol, although they may well have to start.
User avatar
plonkatronix
Bongolier
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:51 pm
Location: S.Wales (nr Cardiff)

Re: So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Post by plonkatronix » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:58 pm

Surely the rust will beat it in the corrosion race, or we could pop one of these £25k electric motors in and do away with the worry entirely :cry:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Protect Yourself, IP BLACKLIST freely available@ http://plonkatronix.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
User avatar
Northern Bongolow
Supreme Being
Posts: 7576
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: AKA Vanessa

Re: So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Post by Northern Bongolow » Thu Nov 28, 2019 11:59 pm

Everything is out there on the net Geoff, but the industry isn't pushing it into the non geek domain.
There are to my knowledge only 5 refineries in Britain, all brands generally share the same fuel suppliers. There are regional importers at most ports that store and ship fuel.
The upshot of this is that no one knows who's fuel is in any petrol station. The supermarket fuels can be better one week, then worse the next.
They all aim for the E5 or whatever the plate at the pump states.
Check the little plate at the pump carefully not just the type of fuel, just use the highest grade possible that your engine can take, even use boosters if you need, your engine will thank you.
I usually use Sainsbury's super unleaded in my non bongo, but recently had to use a shell standard E5 unleaded, the difference apart from the cost was remarkable, the standard shell was miles better on performance and per litre lasted longer than the super.

Go figure.!!.
The good news maybe that up north there maybe a recession, and election, the lack of cash to buy a new car may slow the government policy of shafting poorer people into buying a (cleaner car) than they already have and forcing them to use fuel they don't want at prices they cannot afford because we import most of our fuel used - - - -.
I'm going now as I feel a rant coming on.🤔
User avatar
g8dhe
Supreme Being
Posts: 8910
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:06 pm
Location: Worthing, West Sussex.

Re: So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Post by g8dhe » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:04 pm

This popped up again on FB today so bit more research lead to these links;
The list of known engines that might have problems - Mazda's after 2002 are OK
https://www.acea.be/uploads/publication ... 6pynKCXPmY

Then it seems the problem comes from Phase separation when the ethanol absorbs moisture and settles out as a different phase the Bio Fuel side says;

https://www.biofuelsdigest.com/bdigest/ ... %20concern

The problem seems to be more of concern to large storage tanks where fuel maybe stored for several months, beyond the 3 month timescale - not likely to affect those of us with V6 engines ;-) unless it comes out of the pump already saturated with water .... :-(
Geoff
97 V6, AFT, full side conversion.
Image Spherical Visions
Ian
Supreme Being
Posts: 5506
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: Bongo Mission Control

Re: So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Post by Ian » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:26 pm

I'm opening this up for discussion again because a club member has asked if there was any further news. Here's a summary of what we know so far:

E10 petrol consists of 10% ethanol and 90% petroleum
E5 (5%) is currently found on UK forecourts
To meet emissions targets it is the intention of the UK govenment to introduce E10 petrol on all forecourts. The date for introduction keeps slipping.
E5 petrol would remain available at many garages but at a premium price.
It is estimated that there may be as many of 750,000 vehicles on UK roads that can not run on E10.
Partly because of this the Dept of Transport announced a consultation period. This ended in May 2020 but no report has been published.
All Mazda petrol engines made after 2002 can take E10. Mazda Bongos were upgraded in September 2001, so this date will apply.
Using E10 fuel in an older vehicle is not catastrophic but may lead to starting problems and "pinking".
If E10 fuel is left in a fuel tank longer than a couple of months then "separation" can occur leading to combustion problems.

Here's what I have concluded:

Mazda Bongos with the following chassis numbers will not experience any problems when (if) the new fuel is introduced.

V6 vehicles SG5W-500000 onwards
2 litre vehicles SGE3-500000 onwards & SGEW-400000 onwards

Bongos below these chassis numbers are advised to use E5 fuel but E10 will do no lasting damage as long as the vehicle is used frequently.

Any other comments?
668. The Neighbour of The Beast.
User avatar
g8dhe
Supreme Being
Posts: 8910
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:06 pm
Location: Worthing, West Sussex.

Re: So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Post by g8dhe » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:35 pm

I've noticed that if you go for the higher rated octane fuels they tend to be 5% still rather than 10%. Not sure if this is likely to change or not. From my tests done a while ago on the two fuel types I didn't find any significant cost impact in using either fuel type, so I've tended to stick with the higher octane rating on the basis that I'm less likely to find any gel forming in the tank!
Geoff
97 V6, AFT, full side conversion.
Image Spherical Visions
User avatar
Northern Bongolow
Supreme Being
Posts: 7576
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: AKA Vanessa

Re: So is it time to discuss the effects of Ethanol on Bongo's?

Post by Northern Bongolow » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:36 pm

From the refinery tonight from the person that knows, or not.!
It's all gone quiet on when, it's in the hands of Boris.
To bring in E10 the refineries that feed into the national pipeline (all of em) would need to lower the octane level of the petrols they make or ship into it.
The distribution terminals blend in the ethanol to raise the fuel up to the disired rating, at the moment petrol is made to the correct level to accept up to E5 levels of ethanol only and no plans to change this is on the cards.

But I personally don't think he has included the Boris factor into the conversation, or the Elon factor, or even the Dyson factor, the last 2 will dictate how quick or not things jump.

Hope that helps.