HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wot?)

Technical questions and answers about the Mazda Bongo

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HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wot?)

Post by mikeonb4c » Fri Mar 13, 2015 3:45 pm

Here’s the story.

A couple of months ago, after a long run, engine still warm, I noticed the Bongo was just a little slow to start on turning the ignition key. Only slight hesitation, but I know my Bongo well. From then on, it would be momentarily lumpy on first start of the day, and a little smoky at times. Warm start seemed OK except for occasional slight hesitance. I reckoned it was glow plugs and since I’d suspected one being duff for some time, I guessed a second one had gone. Took it to Adrian and had 4 new NGK glowplugs fitted. Only one of the old glow plugs was u/s which left me wondering if they were in fact the cause of my problem or not. Went straight on for a picnic and was surprised at lumpy start and smoke from warm engine afterwards (as if a working glowplug in the cylinder where the duff one had been might have made things worse). Next day coolant alarm went off on cold engine when I turned the key. Topped it up but it did it again a few days later. On a cold damp day I was struck by how much steamy smoke was coming out the exhaust (though many cars were emitting steam on that cold wet day). I started to worry and took it back to Adrian. Coolant pressure test revealed slight weep from constant pressure clip refitted to new rear heater hose. No other apparent pressure loss. Engine started perfectly for him so I couldn’t demonstrate the lumpy start problem. His view was that we needed to get a better idea of the cause: it was pointless speculating until the problem became more obvious.

I carried on using the car, with lumpy starts from cold most mornings, a little smoke on dry days, lots of steam on cold wet mornings. Sometimes a bit lumpy starting from warm and woe betide if I depressed the throttle pedal: lots of smoke and lumpiness which took minutes to settle. I continued to lose coolant, albeit at a very slow rate, with no obvious cause (my drive looked bone dry etc.).

Adrian still says he’s reluctant to put me for a big bill by taking the head off only to find the gasket isn’t the fault. But the camping season approacheth and I want a healthy Bongo ready for it :-( What to do?

I wondered about using KSeal, as it seems to have good reports on BF and elsewhere, especially where a gasket fault may only be slight. It might at least allow me to determine whether my problem is related to a head gasket fault. Adrian thinks KSeal is OK and has heard of good results obtained with it, including on a Bongo with rather a major gasket problem. His advice is to remove header and radiator caps when the engine is cold and let header tank drain. Remove just enough coolant from radiator to allow pouring in of KSeal. Replace radiator cap, top up header tank, take car for good drive to get everything circulating. Do not remove header tank to do any topping up while pressurised as its this pressure that’s needed to keep driving KSeal into gaps.

There’s some uncertainty over how KSeal might affect the Low Coolant Alarm by coating the sensor screws. The feeling is it may coat them so they need removing an wire brushing but the KSeal should soon be out of solution so that wouldn’t need repeating.

Oh and the smoke coming out of the exhaust is not black, and I don’t think it is blue. Not all white smoke is head gasket related though I think: unburned diesel from faulty glowplugs might look similar. This morning for example, even on a cold damp morning, the car started perfectly and with no steamy smoke initially. But after about 15 seconds, it started to produce billowing amounts of steamy smoke, and even when warm I noticed steamy smoke coming out of the exhaust when stationary at lights. If nothing else, I don't like being a Smoky-Joe motorist. Its not cool!

One minor thing. I fitted a new air filter yesterday. Could be coincidence but starting seems better since. Also, fuel filter not been changed for a few years. But I don't think this could explain my symptoms, though I must get on and change it.

So, at this point, I would really welcome thoughts. I’m philosophical about the cost of whatever might need doing, as after 9 years of faultless behaviour I have to expect a bit of rain, as it were. But I need to be targeting the problem and am not sure of the best way to do that.

Cheers chums. This one’s a brain teaser! :roll:
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by helen&tony » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:41 pm

Hi Mike
Let's not jump the gun with that K-seal...so far it's not losing gallons of coolant, so don't put any in...I hate any gooey stuff in coolant. My first thought is still "pluggy" thoughts...perhaps the electrical supply side is up the creek on the dodgy cylinder, and it's not getting full voltage?...because, as you know, the plugs still operate until the engine is up to temperature...so, maybe what you see is unburnt fuel from the cylinder where the plug isn't operating?...The other thing I'd be tempted to do is pop some injector cleaner through...it could even be a dicky injector. If you use an abrasive cleaner, don't use it again, as they do harm with regular use...stick to Redex Diesel system cleaner after that...I wrote to the company tech. department years ago, and they assured me they don't use abrasives...SO...abrasive type one time only!....They do work!....Also, see if the airflow is obstructed in any way, as the good cylinders may just fire OK , and the weak one might be struggling to burn properly in a reduced air supply.
Regarding the water...go and check all the clips, and the steel pipes. There are 17 hoses, so there are 34 clips...COUNT them off!
Good luck, Sherlock
Cheers
Helen
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by mikeonb4c » Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:54 pm

helen&tony wrote:Hi Mike
Let's not jump the gun with that K-seal...so far it's not losing gallons of coolant, so don't put any in...I hate any gooey stuff in coolant. My first thought is still "pluggy" thoughts...perhaps the electrical supply side is up the creek on the dodgy cylinder, and it's not getting full voltage?...because, as you know, the plugs still operate until the engine is up to temperature...so, maybe what you see is unburnt fuel from the cylinder where the plug isn't operating?...The other thing I'd be tempted to do is pop some injector cleaner through...it could even be a dicky injector. If you use an abrasive cleaner, don't use it again, as they do harm with regular use...stick to Redex Diesel system cleaner after that...I wrote to the company tech. department years ago, and they assured me they don't use abrasives...SO...abrasive type one time only!....They do work!....Also, see if the airflow is obstructed in any way, as the good cylinders may just fire OK , and the weak one might be struggling to burn properly in a reduced air supply.
Regarding the water...go and check all the clips, and the steel pipes. There are 17 hoses, so there are 34 clips...COUNT them off!
Good luck, Sherlock
Cheers
Helen
Excellent post Helen, and thanks. Its crazy really as its running superbly (water injection anyone ha ha!). I'm currently putting Redex diesel cleaner through it and have been warned that alone can make it more smoky. I could try an abrasive cleaner just the once (which product would that be?). I doubt its injectors though as its running so nicely.

I asked Adrian about KSeal and he thought it was fine. Its not like Radweld and other gooey stuff that he thinks are apalling. KSeal tends to give everything a light, hard coating but that's about it - shouldn't compromise or clog any components. The only area where it might cause trouble is the sensor screws on the LCA, but the theory is they can be cleaned once KSeal has all come out of suspension. Meanwhile I may need to disconnect it due to the dreadful sound alarm.

Like you though, I'm a bit purist about these things. If I knew it was the head gasket then I'd have it replaced rather put anything in the system. But the thought of having it replaced when it didn't need one is a bit off-putting esp. as it means the problem moves on to the next possible, with ?cost on that. But in the absence of knowing, maybe KSeal might help establish whether it is a v small lesion in the head gasket, and from all accounts KSeal is a perfectly good way of fixing those.
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by Simon Jones » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:26 pm

I would definitely change the fuel filter. As it's a mechanical injection pump it has to pull the fuel all the way from the tank and any blockage will exaggerate problems with leaky seals. This can result in air being drawn into the fuel as well as potentially lower pressure at the injectors.

When I had a head gasket problem, it ran fine with no white smoke or steam, but combustion gases were getting into the cooling system which resulted in coolant erupting out of the expansion tank. The problem was failed head gasket & the solution was a new one along with having the head skimmed, the block properly prepared & smear of WellSeal compound to glue it all back together.
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by dreamwarrioruk » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:34 pm

we can have the same with ours minus the coolant loss, can be lumpy starting one morning with white smoke, then the next its fine, then it can trail smoke for about quarter of a mile. waiting till glowplug relay clicks off makes no difference, luck of the draw and like the rest of us can be a little temperamental in old age.
mike, jo and emma
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by helen&tony » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:42 pm

Hi Mike
I agree in some respects, as I managed to cure a beggared rad. on a BMW 2002 as a temporary measure, and thinking it was a head gasket. It was UNIPART leak stopper that I used...it was like a wad of compressed tobacco, and it worked without gumming like the mucky radweld....I eventually took the head off with my Dad...NOT easy...it was stuck, so we took the nuts off, re-assembled the carbs and exhaust, and started it :lol: it WASN'T the gasket, but the rad!
Anyway..injector cleaner...if you look for one that actively cleans by abrading in the description rather than dissolving, that's the jobbie...they usually state that they have fine particles that clean.
I don't know what the active component in Kseal is, but I'd heard it was isinglas...the stuff which used to be used for preserving eggs...and making crystalline chemical trees :lol: ...it doesn't seem to be what I'd want in coolant in the long term
Cheers
Helen
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by mikeonb4c » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:48 pm

dreamwarrioruk wrote:we can have the same with ours minus the coolant loss, can be lumpy starting one morning with white smoke, then the next its fine, then it can trail smoke for about quarter of a mile. waiting till glowplug relay clicks off makes no difference, luck of the draw and like the rest of us can be a little temperamental in old age.
I agree Mike. When all is said and done these motors, just like our bodies, move into middle age, where they still work OK, but not quite as they once did. But mine was so clean, so perfect at starting (Adrian often remarks on it - the Bongo, not me ha ha) that it comes as a disappointment. And SOMETHING has definitely caused it. I think Simon is right. Work on the cheap simple and overdue things first and then see how it goes. I'm tempted to try KSeal though at some point as the Bongo has always been one big experiment, so why stop now! And if in the end its a head gasket that's needed, well so be it. She's given great service with nothing but normal bills so far (AFT roof excepted but I always accepted that might be the case) so she's earned some TLC. Its the uncertainty I don't like, and with camping season approaching, and just as I'm getting back into it. Grrrrrr.

Good to see you back on the scene. Love to the family :-)
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by mikeonb4c » Fri Mar 13, 2015 6:57 pm

helen&tony wrote:Hi Mike
I agree in some respects, as I managed to cure a beggared rad. on a BMW 2002 as a temporary measure, and thinking it was a head gasket. It was UNIPART leak stopper that I used...it was like a wad of compressed tobacco, and it worked without gumming like the mucky radweld....I eventually took the head off with my Dad...NOT easy...it was stuck, so we took the nuts off, re-assembled the carbs and exhaust, and started it :lol: it WASN'T the gasket, but the rad!
Anyway..injector cleaner...if you look for one that actively cleans by abrading in the description rather than dissolving, that's the jobbie...they usually state that they have fine particles that clean.
I don't know what the active component in Kseal is, but I'd heard it was isinglas...the stuff which used to be used for preserving eggs...and making crystalline chemical trees :lol: ...it doesn't seem to be what I'd want in coolant in the long term
Cheers
Helen
I think the idea is it comes out of suspension evenly, provided you do a decent drive straight after adding it to the coolant. So all you get is a thin varnish over the internals except where where are very small/slow leaks, where the stuff forms a dam. But I agree, if I could only know it was the head gasket, I'd do the job properly and replace the gasket. Anyway, it might not be that at all. the system doesnt' feel like its over-pressurising, according to Adrian, from a quick squeeze of the hoses. Is there a RELIABLE way leaking gases might be detected either by chemical testing of coolant or by pressure testing the system not just by pumping it up with engine off and looking for pressure drop due to leaks, but by seeing if pressure rises as a result of piston/pumping action (as opposed to thermal expansion) when engine is running?
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by helen&tony » Fri Mar 13, 2015 7:53 pm

Hi Mike
The reliable way would be timing the event...heat would take a little longer than "piston power"...it's rather arbitrary, really, but overheating is normally pretty explosive in terms of loss.
My guess is look for the best scenario...look for the earlier culprits I guessed first, then go for the head
Cheers
Helen
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by Northern Bongolow » Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:17 pm

dont use k seal or similar mike it is a waste of time. steve widdowson (widdowson2008) and me and the owner of a bongo spent months pissing about with this stuff, disconnecting the main fans etc to get the bongo hot enough to cure the stuff, all to no avail, the head later came off.

glow plugs need to be torqued in right, and the connections to them also torqued up correctly, i would start by checking these as a slack nut on the connection to the plug took me a while to find on mine, one plug was in effect getting a poor voltage.

what is the rev counter saying when you first start it up, and for the warm up period, if the revs go too high the plugs get turned off, this combined with the 2 cold start solenoids coming in and out the revs can get lifted too high, then low causing the plugs to be switched on then off etc.

swap the water pump mike, for an unexplained water loss. look at the first picture on this thread for where they leak. use a dentist type mirror to see it as the hole is at the 6 oclock position so behind the belts, use a torch to shin on the mirror. you may not see evidence of a leak on the floor.
http://www.igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/ ... water+pump.


if your struggling bring it up and have a brew. :)
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by mikeonb4c » Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:45 pm

Northern Bongolow wrote:dont use k seal or similar mike it is a waste of time. steve widdowson (widdowson2008) and me and the owner of a bongo spent months pissing about with this stuff, disconnecting the main fans etc to get the bongo hot enough to cure the stuff, all to no avail, the head later came off.

glow plugs need to be torqued in right, and the connections to them also torqued up correctly, i would start by checking these as a slack nut on the connection to the plug took me a while to find on mine, one plug was in effect getting a poor voltage.

what is the rev counter saying when you first start it up, and for the warm up period, if the revs go too high the plugs get turned off, this combined with the 2 cold start solenoids coming in and out the revs can get lifted too high, then low causing the plugs to be switched on then off etc.

swap the water pump mike, for an unexplained water loss. look at the first picture on this thread for where they leak. use a dentist type mirror to see it as the hole is at the 6 oclock position so behind the belts, use a torch to shin on the mirror. you may not see evidence of a leak on the floor.
http://www.igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/ ... water+pump.


if your struggling bring it up and have a brew. :)
Cheers Ady, you're such a star. Points about k seal noted - I'm not that keen on the idea anyway as it's probably not a proper fix. I'm sure glow plugs and relay all ok, everything clicks like it should, Adrian fitted plugs, tickover and cold start behaving perfectly, just as it always has. Possible leak not connected with exhaust symptoms but with such a slow loss diagnosis is tricky though will check pump. I've got some u/v dye somewhere though would need to buy u/v torch. Love the idea of nipping over for a cuppa - maybe I could persuade Trish to take a trip when weather warms up a little. Certainly must get this sorted somehow before I can be confident about intergalactic travel to Bongo meets. :roll:
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by mikeonb4c » Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:16 pm

Here's a thought. I have some u/v coolant dye I got from Haydn some years back (Dye-Lite TP-3940 from Tracer Products - says it's for extended life coolants but imagine it'd be fine with ethylene glycol). If I buy a cheap u/v torch maybe (as well as spotting if I have a coolant leak) I might be able to detect if coolant is getting in the cylinders? I'd have to do a before and after test to establish baseline of course. And maybe the dye would be degraded during combustion. But straight after a cold start, if coolant is resting in the cylinders, you'd think some might be ejected before that happens. Anyone know if this technique has been tried before? I'd be looking for u/v traces inside exhaust pipe and or a clean clothes held by the exhaust.

And then I googled this:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/index ... 13069.html

....which seems to suggest it might work :roll:
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by helen&tony » Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:47 pm

Hi Mike
Those torches aren't a lot of good (I have one to see what it's like), and there's not really enough power from them. You need a good 240volt UV light, and I believe there was a thread some few years ago that confirmed this...but it won't be hard to find a good light source of reasonable power, and I would think like the article says, you might spot traces of dye round the exhaust.
Cheers
Helen
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by widdowson2008 » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:26 pm

Before you use K-seal, take a look at this post. (the one Ady was referring to).
Note: as mentioned, this thermostat was a 2 week old Mazda stat!!!!!

http://igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/view ... al#p547183
Steve
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Re: HELP: Something is wrong with my baby (head gasket or wo

Post by mikeonb4c » Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:30 pm

widdowson2008 wrote:Before you use K-seal, take a look at this post. (the one Ady was referring to).
Note: as mentioned, this thermostat was a 2 week old Mazda stat!!!!!

http://igmaynard.co.uk/bongo/forum/view ... al#p547183
Thanks Steve, very useful and great to know you're still out there keeping an eye on us when things get technical. Hope you're keeping well and still Bongoing. 8)
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