intercooler. need to go big.

Technical questions and answers about the Mazda Bongo

Moderators: Doone, westonwarrior

veebug74

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by veebug74 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:03 pm

dandywarhol wrote:
veebug74 wrote:Bigger isnt always better,you will more than likely introduce lag ,The gains will if any be marginal .
Whacking up the boost pressure would make the biggest difference ,providing the fuelings there. :D
Like adding a light spring to he actuator rod (assuming the boost isn't already at max) :wink:
Easiest way is off the vacum/boost solenoid etc ,might need a boost controller to progressively bring it in. Diesels produce a lot of torque low down ,so big boost low down standing start etc isnt best for the slushbox. :shock: Most cars are detuned for reliability100k plus milage,emissions etc and for all weather conditions meaning theres improvent to be had in a engine remap/boost pressure increase .Turned the boost up on my mitsubishi evolution rally car from 0.9 bar to 1.3 and the gains are huge fuelling is ok at that ,base maps for most car ecus are safer( ie richer) for safety and above reasons. :D providing u dont go too far 1.4 bar plus etc . :D .I now run 2.25 bar on an evo with a group a engine and gems ecu management .
Look how vw and audi alter there hp and torque audi tt 180 bhp or a 22obhp option reflashing ecu ,chipping .vw T5s again the same.Need to rig up a boost guage to the turbo vac pipe my moneys on around 0.6-0.9 bar for a standard bongo. Should be a tag on the turbo giving id ie gt35 garret ,t25 etc ,would look at what other engines use that spec turbo etc as well :D
User avatar
dandywarhol
Supreme Being
Posts: 5446
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by dandywarhol » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:12 pm

You're pretty close with your figures for the Bongo boost from memory - but the wastegate isn't adjustable and there's no soleniod etc. on pre '99 models - so fitting a light spring to the actuator rod is my answer (in conjunction with a boost gauge of course).
I'm replacing my exhaust manifold gasket shortly - I'll have a go then.

A big must to anyone thinking of changing boost pressure is NEVER to exceed the oil change intervals IMO
Whale oil beef hooked
Renault Lunar Telstar
Yamaha TD1C 250, Merc SLK200, KTM Duke 690
rustyp
Bongolier
Posts: 263
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:01 pm
Location: Saltash

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by rustyp » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:20 pm

Cleaned my intercooler today with degreaser, straightened out the fins, removed flies and stones and modified the scoop that leads to it. I used a big pair of pliers to bend down the bottom lip/edge perhaps opened it out about 1/2 inch? May help scoop in a bit more air. :D

It would be relatively straight forwards to obtain and fit a much wider (but no taller) intercooler and cut-up 2 intercooler scoops and plastic weld them together to make an extra wide intercooler scoop!

I'm still going ahead with the chargecooler plan though in the long-term and not a bigger intercooler :twisted:

Russ
veebug74

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by veebug74 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:52 pm

[quote="dandywarhol"]You're pretty close with your figures for the Bongo boost from memory - but the wastegate isn't adjustable and there's no soleniod etc. on pre '99 models - so fitting a light spring to the actuator rod is my answer (in conjunction with a boost gauge of course).
I'm replacing my exhaust manifold gasket shortly - I'll have a go then.

A big must to anyone thinking of changing boost pressure is NEVER to exceed the oil change interval

some topical reading :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boost_controller
http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boost%20control.htms
rustyp
Bongolier
Posts: 263
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:01 pm
Location: Saltash

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by rustyp » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:52 pm

I have an adjustable boost controller, a rather old-school setup (it comes with instructions for the Escort RS Turbo) which is an adjustable bleed for the wastegate feed pipe controlled by a simple 'volume control' variable resistor.

Xmas present off my brother, haven't fitted it yet as want to fit a boost gauge first to be sure!

If there is any play in your wastegate actuator rod then shim the actuator away from the wastegate to take up the slack (if that makes sense!)

Russ
User avatar
dandywarhol
Supreme Being
Posts: 5446
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Edinburgh

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by dandywarhol » Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:33 am

Makes sense! My thoughts were to check the boost pressure and if there's room for extra, experiment with a lightweight spring onto the actuator rod which would then require more boost to open the wastegate
Whale oil beef hooked
Renault Lunar Telstar
Yamaha TD1C 250, Merc SLK200, KTM Duke 690
veebug74

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by veebug74 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:46 pm

http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boost%20control.htm
http://www.gusmahon.org/html/boostcontrol.htm

Noticed when installing new glow plugs x3 soleniods 1 cold idle 2 aircon 3 egr.
If ur egr is disabled in theory u could possibly use the solenoid, in one of the above set ups.
User avatar
Rhinoman
Bongolier
Posts: 330
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:45 pm
Location: Brinkworth, Wilts
Contact:

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by Rhinoman » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:06 pm

Has anyone measured the intake air temperature to see how effect the stock intercooler is?
1995 Ford Freda, 2.5TD, auto, AFT, side conversion.
User avatar
missfixit70
Supreme Being
Posts: 12431
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 3:53 pm
Location: weymouth

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by missfixit70 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:07 am

Nope, but it's definitely something to consider very carefully,
From a pm received today
Hi,thought this may make some sense after our conversation about other factors that can contribute to head failures,the heads i have seen on the forum failed around the valve area in the said to be weak spot

Source; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercooler
After Coolers,
As well as allowing a greater mass of air to be admitted to an engine, intercoolers have a key role in controlling the internal temperatures in a turbocharged engine. When fitted with a turbo (as with any form of supercharging), the engine's specific power is increased, leading to higher combustion and exhaust temperatures. The exhaust gases passing through the turbine section of the turbocharger are usually around 450 °C (840 °F), but can be as high as 1000 °C (1830 °F) under extreme conditions. This heat passes through the turbocharger unit and contributes to the heating of the air being compressed in the compressor section of the turbo. If left uncooled this hot air enters the engine, further increasing internal temperatures. This leads to a build up of heat that will eventually stabilise, but this may be at temperatures in excess of the engine's design limits- 'hot spots' at the piston crown or exhaust valve can cause warping or cracking of these components. This effect is especially found in modified or tuned engines running at very high specific power outputs. An efficient intercooler removes heat from the air in the induction system, preventing the cyclic heat build-up via the turbocharger, allowing higher power outputs to be achieved without damage.

Compression by the turbocharger causes the intake air to heat up, rather than the air being heated by contact with the hot turbocharger itself, the vast majority is through the act of compression (ideal gas law) plus added heat due to compressor inefficiencies (adiabatic efficiency). The extra power obtained from forced induction is due to the extra air available to burn more fuel in each cylinder.

So with a clagged up intercooler could this be contributing towards overheating & head/gasket failure?
Also to be considered is the fact that the egr gases are admitted after the intercooler, which must increase the air intake temperature, especially if the egr valve is not closing when it is supposed to. I guess this may be offset by reduction in combustion temperatures due to the semi inert nature of the recirculated exhaust gas?
You can't polish a turd - but you can roll it in glitter.
User avatar
Rhinoman
Bongolier
Posts: 330
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:45 pm
Location: Brinkworth, Wilts
Contact:

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by Rhinoman » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:48 am

The purpose of the EGR is to reduce combustion chamber temperature so its probably not a good idea to blank it off. I shouldn't think that the intercooler has anything to do with overheating, on a petrol engine the rise in intake temperature can cause detonation but on a diesel I would think that it would be quite trivial compared to the heat generated by the combustion process itself. I doubt if many people here are running full boost for any length of time so the engine should be well within its design parameters
When a head cracks its invariably around one of the valves as this is the weak area on all heads.
1995 Ford Freda, 2.5TD, auto, AFT, side conversion.
User avatar
Northern Bongolow
Supreme Being
Posts: 7713
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: AKA Vanessa

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by Northern Bongolow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:16 pm

so do you think that if you have a blanked or not working egr valve,a poor cooling system,dont change the engine oil as often as you should giving generaly higher engine temps,and a clagged intercooler ,pulling hard up a long slow asscent things could go bang.
just for the sake of debate you understand.
User avatar
mikeonb4c
Supreme Being
Posts: 22875
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: Living with Mango Bongo in the North West but with a tendency to roam
Contact:

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by mikeonb4c » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:15 pm

Rhinoman wrote:The purpose of the EGR is to reduce combustion chamber temperature so its probably not a good idea to blank it off. I shouldn't think that the intercooler has anything to do with overheating, on a petrol engine the rise in intake temperature can cause detonation but on a diesel I would think that it would be quite trivial compared to the heat generated by the combustion process itself. I doubt if many people here are running full boost for any length of time so the engine should be well within its design parameters
When a head cracks its invariably around one of the valves as this is the weak area on all heads.
Blimey, I didn't know that. I thought (I think from reading - and probably misunderstanding! - stuff on here a long time back) it was intended for some other purpose. I did read that blanking it off might make the engine run a little hotter, but no-one seemed to think this was a problem and lots of people had (have) blanked theirs off without - as far as we know - any problems associated with it.

If what you say is true, maybe we should start a thread alerting people to the risks?

Regarding the intercooler, am I right in understanding its purpose is to create cooler, denser (and thus more oxygen rich) air so that you get more bucks per bang out of each detonation?
User avatar
Rhinoman
Bongolier
Posts: 330
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:45 pm
Location: Brinkworth, Wilts
Contact:

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by Rhinoman » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:53 pm

Well strictly speaking the purpose of the EGR is to reduce NOx emissions however it does that by reducing combustion temperatures. I probably should have qualified my statement by saying its not a good idea to blank it off if your cooling system is marginal.
You are correct that the intercooler is there to make the air more dense by reducing its temperature, the question is how much can be gained by a bigger intercooler? I think I should take some temperature measurements. First task is to find the engine, I looked under the bonnet but it was nowhere to be seen :D
1995 Ford Freda, 2.5TD, auto, AFT, side conversion.
User avatar
mikeonb4c
Supreme Being
Posts: 22875
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:49 pm
Location: Living with Mango Bongo in the North West but with a tendency to roam
Contact:

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by mikeonb4c » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:01 pm

Rhinoman wrote:Well strictly speaking the purpose of the EGR is to reduce NOx emissions however it does that by reducing combustion temperatures. I probably should have qualified my statement by saying its not a good idea to blank it off if your cooling system is marginal.
You are correct that the intercooler is there to make the air more dense by reducing its temperature, the question is how much can be gained by a bigger intercooler? I think I should take some temperature measurements. First task is to find the engine, I looked under the bonnet but it was nowhere to be seen :D
Phew! I'm more relaxed now (even though my EGR has not been blanked off!)

On the intercooler thing, I recall seeing a device that sprayed water (or was it water/alcohol) onto the intercooler in order to improve its efficiency using evaporative cooling. I liked the sound of that idea and could be tempted to try a DIY job. Do you have any knowledge of this solution and how effective it might be?
User avatar
Northern Bongolow
Supreme Being
Posts: 7713
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: AKA Vanessa

Re: intercooler. need to go big.

Post by Northern Bongolow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:06 pm

excellent, in my unqualified opinion this crucial element of the engine system has a lot of answers to give in relation to overheating issues.I will follow this thread with interest.
Post Reply

Return to “Techie Stuff”